Putting suppressor in Trust before filing?

[Ryanxia]

Up until now I've form 1 e-filed all my NFA stuff, but have a suppressor on the way. A friend just bought two suppressors at a Class 3 dealer (that were in stock) but was told he could not add them to the Trust's Schedule A yet because you can't add 'pending NFA items'.

This doesn't seem right to me. The way I see it if you purchase a suppressor it legally becomes your property even if you still have steps to take before you can possess it.

I have a suppressor on the way to my local dealer and was planning on updating my Schedule A with the suppressor before I sent the copy off to the ATF with my form 4. This can be done right?

In my friend's situation he created the Trust specifically for these suppressors so they were going to be his first property in there and as such doesn't have anything listed in the Schedule A, the dealer told him he'd have to add something else, which isn't a big deal just seems like a pain when you should just be able to add the suppressor (which is in stock and sitting right there) to the list, thus validating the Trust, and send it off.

I checked the Sticky and did an online search but didn't see an answer to this specific question. Thanks for any info.

 

[yugorpk]

I do it every time. The ATF approves them every time.

 

[Ryanxia]

Thanks, that's what I thought but I've certainly been wrong on occasion so thought I'd double check.

 

[pintler]

You just missed a thread discussing that (see post #21 especially):

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=797904

 

[Ryanxia]

Thanks.

For anyone searching this thread in the future, the following is from a lawyer who writes NFA Trusts in the link pintler provided:

The debate seems to be about whether you can list Form 4 items on your trust before the tax stamp is approved. My legal opinion is that you can. If you disagree or your lawyer disagrees, then do the $1 of US Currency trick instead if your Schedule A is blank. (And if you already own NFA items in your trust, then just add your Form 4 item when the stamp comes back.)

Here's my legal reasoning as to why it's okay to list a Form 4 suppressor or SBR or machine gun (or whatever) on your trust before you get the stamp. Assuming that you've paid for it, as 99% of dealers require, you have an ownership interest in the item even if the ATF hasn't approved the transfer. The ATF is regulating possession and not ownership. You gave the dealer money for a specific item, and he can't sell that suppressor to someone else and then substitute in a different suppressor of the same model. The one with the serial number you submitted to the ATF and paid for is yours. You just can't take possession until the ATF approves the transfer. Since you paid for it, your trust has an ownership interest and you can list it on the Schedule A.

(Side note: I've always done this, and the ATF has approved my forms. Of course, as is pointed out above, the ATF doesn't seem to care AT ALL what is on your Schedule A. List the item, don't list the item. Whatever. The only issue is that you can't submit a blank Schedule A if that's the entire list of your trust's property.)

To emphasize: the ATF is regulating possession. They're approving a transfer of possession. They are not the DMV. Tax stamps are not titles or deeds. They are not regulating who has an ownership interest in the suppressor.

 

[yugorpk]

He's right. A trust isnt a trust unless there is something in it as property. The ATF doesnt care what it is and they don't care if you put your new stuff in it they have not approved for transfer either. I just put my stuff in it before I send it to them so I keep track and make sure to do it.

 

[Ryanxia]

I knew you had to put something in it, but where the suppressors were going to be that something he didn't initially have anything else in there. Wouldn't have been an issue with a regular Class 3 dealer but this guy apparently had a problem with him putting the new suppressors he just bought into the Trust. (Not that it's up to the dealer but my friend is kind of new to NFA items).

 

[Elkins45]

I have bought two silencers on a Form 4, one of which was the first item in my NFA trust. When I submitted my paperwork I sent a Schedule A with the silencer listed and (pending BATFE approval) added. It was approved without correction, so I have followed the same procedure with the subsequent additions. So far none have been sent back for correction.

 

[basicblur]

but was told he could not add them to the Trust's Schedule A yet because you can't add 'pending NFA items'.

I did not add my silencers to my trust property sheet until after I received the tax stamp / approved paperwork back from the ATF.

I did so at the time of my original application - since the property sheet requires you list the tax stamp number of the device, and you don't have a tax stamp number until they approve and send it....?

Of course, after my first submission I see now that the tax stamp number is the same as the silencer serial number, but I'll continue to send in a copy of my trust without the items I'm applying for listed.

I could put the serial # of the item on the trust before sending it, but who's to say the tax stamp # might not exactly match the serial #?
Fer example - some of my silencer serial #'s have a hyphen in the number, but the tax stamp number does not have the hyphen.
Rather than try to outguess the ATF on exactly how they're going to issue the tax stamp # (with a hyphen or not?), I just wait until I actually have the tax stamp in hand before adding it to the trust property sheet.

I did so with my original application and subsequent additions to the trust, both with no problem.

 

[Aaron Baker]

since the property sheet requires you list the tax stamp number of the device

Just to clarify for anyone else reading the thread: not ALL trusts have a property sheet that requires the tax stamp number of your NFA item to be listed.

So that may be a problem for you on your trust, but for my clients, the Schedule A (which is the trust's property list on my trusts) only requires the brand, model and serial number. That means the item can easily be listed before the tax stamp is applied for.

I'm not trying to suggest that one is better than the other. Trusts can be drafted many different ways. That's why it's best to consult with your own trust attorney when questions like this arise. But that's not always possible, since plenty of people use DIY trusts.

Aaron

 

[Ryanxia]

My Trust and my friend's Trust are setup as Aaron describes. We don't list our tax number on the Schedule A just make, model & serial number.

 

[yugorpk]

Ive never even heard of tax stamp number being entered. Why would you do that when the serial number of the item identifies the device in question? You can do a trust however you want but why make it more complicated than it needs to be?