Putting to rest the myth of the "Cowboy Carry": Colt + S&W recommended carry w/all 6 chambers loaded

[Griffen]

This has been a really good, informative, and highly educational thread. Thanks to the OP for presenting the theme for consideration. A lot of the following comments have been highly informative as well. Obviously, there is a diversity of opinion and that is not surprising.

Having read this thread with great interest and also having been in the “workings” of many of my firearms, the difference between intrinsically safe, ready, and bang are incredibly small in all these firearms; all of them that I have been inside, anyway. Sear engagement, trigger design, etc. are all super small dimensionally. If a firearm has a “good trigger”, the overlap is generally small and the surfaces are highly polished. That doesn’t mean they are inherently unsafe; just that the tolerances are tight and the surface to surface area is quite small. After being inside them, I have given up the old designs in favor of Ruger New Vaquero’s tricked out a bit. They can’t match the nice old style single action triggers, but perform quite well.

My observations apply to modern firearms, including semi-autos, as well.

Makes one want to reconsider carry their Winchester 92 and the like at quarter cocked, as well. This is a good clip of how a lever action works. It is not surprising that it mimics the old SAA.



Be safe out there.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Makes one want to reconsider carry their Winchester 92 and the like at quarter cocked, as well. This is a good clip of how a lever action works. It is not surprising that it mimics the old SAA.

Howdy Again

The geometry of a rifle is very different than the geometry of a revolver.

Think about it for a moment. The hammer spur on a revolver protrudes far out from the frame and grip. If a revolver is dropped with any spin at all, there is a fairly good chance it will land on the hammer spur.






Not so much with a rifle. Here is a typical Winchester Model 1892, but the amount the hammer protrudes on just about any rifle is similar. I have quite a few Winchester lever guns, both antique and modern replicas. I don't have any photos of rifle parts handy, but all their hammers have a 'half cock' position that pulls the hammer back slightly from the firing pin. Even if dropped upside down, it is far less likely that it will land on its hammer spur. Much more likely the muzzle or butt will contact the ground first, absorbing most of the impact.






I don't hunt, but if I did and was carrying a lever action rifle, I would want a round chambered with the hammer on half cock, rather than alerting game by working the action to chamber around.

 

[aaaaa]

This is a good clip of how a lever action works. It is not surprising that it mimics the old SAA.



Be safe out there.

Speaking of be safe. I read somewhere that with a tube magazine if you have ammo that is too pointy and a lot of recoil, there is a danger of setting off a primer in the tube and then they ALL go OFF! Gotta have flat nosed bullets I guess.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Speaking of be safe. I read somewhere that with a tube magazine if you have ammo that is too pointy and a lot of recoil, there is a danger of setting off a primer in the tube and then they ALL go OFF! Gotta have flat nosed bullets I guess.

Howdy

That is somewhat open to interpretation. With a relatively long round, such as 30-30, each round will be tilted slightly in the magazine and a pointed bullet will probably not be touching the primer of the round in front of it.

These are the cartridges I load with Black Powder. Left to right they are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, 38-40, and 45-70. They all have flat nosed bullets. The only ones I shoot in a lever gun with a tubular magazine are 44-40 and 38-40.

 

[sequins]

I wish I had a 1st gen to play with, mainly. I've only shot reproductions.

 

[SeanSw]

Adjacent to the discussion, were flap holsters a common way to carry single action firearms? That would seem to at least cushion or disrupt an accidental blow to the hammer from above, and guarantee it cannot come loose and fall out.

Clearly it's slower on the draw, but for trailblazing and utility it may be the most convenient solution to loading six.

 

[.308 Norma]

Adjacent to the discussion, were flap holsters a common way to carry single action firearms?

Don't know. It would have been a "common" way for me to carry a single action revolver though. As a matter of fact, my favorite holster for my little Glock G44 is a nylon, Barsony brand flap holster. I love the way it protects and secures my "bumming around in the hills" (like I was doing yesterday) and "fishing" gun.
Of course, I'm not planning on doing any quick draws from that flap holster, but I've never been attacked by an angry trout in all my years anyway.
BTW, if carrying single revolvers in flap holsters was common back in the day, I'll bet the flaps weren't secured by Velcro like the flap on my nylon Barsony brand flap holster is. That's the one thing I have against that holster - the Velcro is noisy! It scared more than one ground squirrel back down its hole last spring.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Other than Wild Bill shooting Davis Tutt on the street in Springfield, Missouri in 1865, quick draw, as seen in Hollywood Westerns, was practically nonexistent.

Much more common was bushwhacking, or shooting an opponent in the back on a dark night.

So 'quick draw' hardly figured into what kind of holster was common in the Old West.

Most of the vintage photos I have seen of men carrying belt pistols in the Old West show holsters with the hammer and trigger guard exposed.

But there were probably plenty of men carrying their pistols in flap holsters left over from the Civil War too.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Reputedly, 'old sarges' in 'Nam advised their troops to only load 19 rounds in an AR 20 round magazine...it was never my lot to run thru' the jungle with my M16A1, but I've never had a first round failure to feed, then, or with my own ARs.
(Actually, that is a lie...the only misfeed from the first round was in a 5 round mag used for zeroing, but such things are the work of the devil in any case.)
So it might be the same thing with only loading 5; advice given to the troops by seasoned noncoms, for a far better reason than the 'only load 19 rounds' business.
For the here and now, prefer traditional function, and only loading five in a SAA.
SleepySquirrel, really a great writeup, well documented and informative. Thank you.
Moon

 

[contender]

were folks more prone to read an instruction manual back then? seems there is a problem by some reading a manual today. I can not confirm and am too lazy to research, but literacy rates during the late 1800's was reported around 20 percent or less...and probably worse out West? So reading a firearms manual might not had been high on the list or not even comprehended.

If not reading manuals, then perhaps they were following BP firearm carry procedures for the colt 1860 or the 1851? Might be a case of that is the way its always been done.

i might be mistaken, but was standard military procedure for carry to be hammer down on an empty chamber? if so it might be another case of copying the military as is done today? As the old saying goes, there is the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way.

i have no documentation...just thoughts be they right or wrong.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

were folks more prone to read an instruction manual back then? seems there is a problem by some reading a manual today. I can not confirm and am too lazy to research, but literacy rates during the late 1800's was reported around 20 percent or less...and probably worse out West? So reading a firearms manual might not had been high on the list or not even comprehended.

This took me 5 minutes to find.

According to this study illiteracy of the general population in 1870 was only 20%. That's illiteracy, not literacy.

https://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp

i might be mistaken, but was standard military procedure for carry to be hammer down on an empty chamber? if so it might be another case of copying the military as is done today? As the old saying goes, there is the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way.

This is a lengthy thread, and there have been plenty of references in it to what the military manuals said.

 

[freedom arms .45]

don't know about what people did in the old days.
i just buy rugers and carry 6 with no worries.

but the historical info was interesting. thanks for that.

 

[25-20 WCF]

A fun thread, but as others have stated, what the factory recommends is not proof of how end users carried their revolvers. The M16 had a 20 round magazine, but I know for a fact that many of us in Nam carried only 18 or 19 rounds in our mags - because that’s what we did. Logic or instruction manuals had nothing at all to do with it.

Bottom line, we will never know for certain how most revolver users in the late 19th century actually did carry, and the primary sources the OP believes are some kind of proof are in fact not proof of anything except of what was printed in the factory documents. I sure don’t know the final answer, and neither does anyone else.




.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

While we're on the subject of revolvers and such has anyone come across an actual set of loading instructions for cap and ball revolvers that definitely states a ring of lead be shaved off the ball when loading? This is supposedly to prevent chain fires.

 

[Griffen]

No, but when I use the recommended ball size in my 1860 Uberti .44, I always get a lead ring.

 

[sleepysquirrel2]

While we're on the subject of revolvers and such has anyone come across an actual set of loading instructions for cap and ball revolvers that definitely states a ring of lead be shaved off the ball when loading? This is supposedly to prevent chain fires.

Here are the original instructions:

DIRECTIONS FOR LOADING COLT'S PISTOLS

First explode a cap on each nipple to clear them from oil or dust, then draw back the hammer to the half-cock, which allows the cylinder to be rotated; a charge of powder is then placed in each chamber, and a ball with the pointed end upwards, without wadding or patch, is put one at a time into the mouths of the chambers, turned under the rammer, and forced down with the lever below the surface of the cylinder, so they cannot hinder its rotation. This is repeated until all chambers are loaded. Percussion-caps are then placed on the nipples, when, by drawing back the hammer to the full-cock, the arm is in condition for a discharge by pulling the trigger; a repetition of the same motion produces the like results, viz. six shots without reloading. The Hammer when at full-cock, forms the sight by which aim is taken.

To carry the arms safely when loaded, the hammer should be let down on one of the pins between each nipple, on the end of the cylinder.
The arm should be thoroughly cleaned and oiled after firing, particularly the base-pin on which the cylinder turns.
Soft lead must be used for the balls. The cylinder is not to be taken off when loaded.


THE QUANTITY OF POWDER USED FOR THE DIFFERENT SIZE PISTOLS

Cavalry or Holster Pistol ... 1 1/4, 1 3/8, or 1 1/2 drachm [British dram, not troy drachm]
Navy or belt ditto (second size) ... 5/8, 3/4, or 7/8 ditto
Pocket ditto (4, 5, and 6 inch barrel) ... 3/8, 1/2, or 5/8 ditto

N.B. It will b safe to use all the Powder the chambers will hold, leaving room for the Ball, whether the Powder is strong or weak.

DIRECTIONS FOR LOADING WITH COLTS FOIL CARTRIDGE
Strip the white case off the Cartridge, by holding the bullet end and tearing it down with the black tape. Place the Cartridge in the mouth of the chamber of the cylinder, with the pointed end of the bullet uppermost, one at a time, and turns them under the rammer, forcing them down with the lever below the surface of the cylinder, so they can not hinder the rotation.
To ensure certainty of ignition, it is advisable to puncture the end of the Cartridge so that a small portion of gunpowder may escape into the chamber while loading the pistol.
DIRECTIONS FOR CLEANING
Set the lock at half cock, drive out the key that holds the barrel and cylinder to the lock frame, then draw off the barrel and cylinder, by bringing down the lever and forcing the rammer on the portion between the chambers. Take out the nipples. Wash the cylinder and barrel in warm water, dry and oil them thoroughly; oil freely the base pin on which the cylinder revolves.
TO TAKE THE LOCK TO PIECES, CLEAN AND OIL
First-Remove the stock, by turning out bottom and two rear screws that fasten it to guard and lock-frame near hammer
Second-Loosen the screw that fastens mainspring to the trigger-guard, and turn spring from under tumbler of the hammer
Third-Remove the trigger-guard, by turning out the three screws that fasten it to the lock-frame
Fourth-Turn out the screw, and remove the double screw spring that bears upon the trigger and bolt.
Fifth- Turn out the screw pin that hold the trigger and bolt in their place.
Sixth- Turn out the remaining screw pin and remove the hammer with hand attached by drawing it downwards out of the lock frame. Clean all the parts and oil them thoroughly.
TO PUT THEM TOGETHER-Replace the hammer with the hand spring attached, then the bolts, then trigger, the screw spring, the trigger guard, the mainspring, and finally the handle: returning each screw to its proper place, the arm is again in for use.

Originals had slightly tapered chambers to swage the bullet down to size, so unless you are shooting far oversized round balls, you won't get a shaved ring of lead. That's why colt's instructions don't specify the "shaved ring of lead"

Note that most percussion revolvers were loaded with paper cartridges and conical projectiles, and would have used oversized projectiles with pre-lubricated grease grooves that would seal the chambers when properly swaged down to size. (Note that "ball" in period instructions is synonymous with "bullet", whether round ball or conical ball -- after all, Colt's instructions refer to loading "a ball with the pointed end upwards"). The original 44 caliber conical bullets were often closer to .460" and not .451"-.457"; original 36/38 caliber conical bullets were 390", and not the undersized .375" as commonly used today; and 31 cal conical bullets were used .330" and not the .315"-320" used in modern reproductions.

Measure some original paper cartridge bullets and you'll find the diameters are a lot larger than the diameters recommended for the modern italian repros. But if you don't access to any original bullets, here's the 1861 Army Ordnance manual proving so as well. You'll see the 44 Caliber army revolvers were provided 46 caliber conical balls, and the 38 caliber navy revolvers were provided 39 caliber conical balls:


These oversized "balls" (read: "ball" = "elongated ball" = conical bullets, as per the original instructions -- but if you don't believe me, please show me a .39" roundball that weighs 145 grains, or a .46" roundball that weighs 216 grains) worked perfectly to seal the bore when prelubricated and properly swaged into the tapered chambers.

A few things this tells us about some commonly perpetuated myths:

1. Yes, they are called nipples, not cones. (Cones was sometimes used in reference to musket caps, but Colt never called them cones)
2. Wads were never used in loading percussion revolvers. They would take up chamber volume that could otherwise be used for loading (see colt's instructions that "a charge of powder is then placed in each chamber, and a ball with the pointed end upwards, without wadding or patch, is put one at a time into the mouths of the chambers" and "It will be safe to use all the Powder the chambers will hold, when loading with the flask, leaving room for the Ball, whether the Powder is strong or weak."). Note this reference is not to cylinder-sized wonder wads like we see today, but "wadding" refers to tow or cloth as used for muzzle-loaded smoothbores; and "patch" refers to cloth pathes as used in patched roundballs for rifles.
3. Grease over chamber mouths was never explicitly recommended (and you never see a chamber grease bottle packaged in original cased sets either), because a proper foil or paper cartridges would come with the bullet pre-lubricated. In case you are curious, the original recipe for bullet grease from the 1861 Ordnance manual is 8 parts beeswax to 1 part tallow.
4. The bright idea of the pale rider "swap cylinders during battle", was explicitly cautioned against as a stupid idea, see Colt's instructions that "The cylinder is not to be taken off when loaded." Not to mention spare cylinders were only ever sold in expensive cased sets, where the spare was an extra fitted to the original revolver for use if the first was damaged or lost.

Funny thing that people can endlessly argue over the internet about "In my opinion this is the right way because someone youtube said so" or "my repros are made to poor specifications, therefore I KNOW that all originals worked this way", or "my grandpa who was born over half a century after the old west period ended always taught me to do it this way". But these same people never seem to be able to take the 30 minutes to just look up the original instructions.

It's not like it's propriety information, that stuff is all out of copyright and freely available these days. And for those claiming there were high rates of illiteracy during the old west period -- it seems to me if anything they were more literate than some of the people using the internet today.

 

[desmobob]

Cowboys didn't load six because when they shot it dry, the indians could hear the "ping" of the empty clip hitting the ground and then charged and scalped them.

 

[sgt127]

Cowboys didn't load six because when they shot it dry, the indians could hear the "ping" of the empty clip hitting the ground and then charged and scalped them.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Well shoot, it's supposed to be a six shooter.

 

[Dave T]

This whole argument is over cartridge guns,not percussion revolvers. Try to keep up...smiley face goes here.

Dave

 

[silicosys4]

I haven't broken the sear or safety notch, but I have demonstrated to people that a 3 screw ruger with the hammer down on a live round will fire from a light tap to the back of the hammer with a short length of dowel.
A surprisingly light tap.

Read "the jungle" if you think that period was one of concern for consumer safety.

 

[sleepysquirrel2]

This whole argument is over cartridge guns,not percussion revolvers. Try to keep up...smiley face goes here.

Dave

See:

By the way, if any of you gentlemen would like to post any of that primary source evidence that documents that the cowboy carry DID occur before 1890 (or even 1899), I think many of us on this forum would sincerely appreciate that. Concrete evidence is always welcome when discussing historical facts.

100 replies and not a single person has yet posted documentation from before 1899 describing the "cowboy carry."
You can't fault me for getting bored from waiting on you experts now, can you?

 

[sobrbiker883]

I’m surprised no one questioned Wyatt Earp’s “safety/hair trigger” comment.
I do know if I were a gunslinger that could afford “hair” trigger work on my gun, I think my not having a habit of resting the sear in the safety notch would be more about protecting the fine tuned angle of the sear so I’d not have a malfunction at a bad time, therefore mortally endangering my “safety”…
Personally I’ve got a Pietta 1873, and I installed a Uberti pin. If the grandkids or other persons of dubious safety ability are around I engage the pin safety. If gun is stored in arm’s reach hot, or carried in a holster not expecting rough handling it’s carried as the 1875 manual specifies (loaded fully, hammer in safety notch). If I’m on horseback or engaging in other active stuff while carrying I load one, skip one, load four and drop on empty.
God gave us brains, use them.

All that said, I do remember as a youngster in the seventies being at the Smitty’s grocery store when a biker a couple lines over dropped a Blackhawk and aerated his upper thigh…

 

[PWC]

"And for those claiming there were high rates of illiteracy during the old west period -- it seems to me if anything they were more literate than some of the people using the internet today."

At least the arguments on this gun board are more high brow than on many of the others.

 

[desmobob]

I haven't broken the sear or safety notch, but I have demonstrated to people that a 3 screw ruger with the hammer down on a live round will fire from a light tap to the back of the hammer with a short length of dowel.
A surprisingly light tap.

Read "the jungle" if you think that period was one of concern for consumer safety.

The one and only Colt SAA I purchased (new) came out of the box with a broken safety notch!