pyrodex pellets or loose powder

[ArkansasFatboy]

I have shot both loose powder and pellets before. I went to pellets awhile back but now since i reload and realize that 5 grains of powder up or down can open or close groups in centerfire rifles i was thinking the same may hold true for blackpowder. give me some of your opinions

 

[dwave]

It does hold true. I have found that 25gr. Goex BP will shoot better groups than 30 or 35 in my Pietta 1858.

My .45 Rifle Shoots great with 60 grs. BP, but not so well with 65 or 70. You say you are a reloader? Some guns can react to a .1 gr. change in powder for modern guns. Muzzleloaders, while not that finicky (at least not mine), different powder charges will react differently just like modern guns. You will find that shooting muzzleloaders is like reloading in the field, making one round at a time.

EDIT: I used to load up 40 grs into that 1858, and while it was extremely fun, it was a terrible shooting load. I only used it to impress the friends if they have never seen one go boom.

 

[arcticap]

Pyrodex pellets work very good for some. The produce a little more velocity than loose Pyrodex because they're so compressed and Pyrodex reacts favorably to compression, and the 209's are hot enough to consume them. So if folks are shooting 100 grains anyway then being in the pellet form may not matter too much.
It always seems more difficult for me to get consistent compression with Pyrodex RS, so maybe Pyrodex P is a good option to try instead of RS as a better loose substitute for pellets. Pyrodex P is easier to compress and pack tightly because there's less air trapped between each granule. And the percolate that Pyrodex contains produces some extra oxygen as a booster.
But the pellets do offer consistent powder density instead of varying the amount of ramming compression and trying to gauge it by feel.
I personally have never shot any pellets but many do who proclaim that they work well. But they are more expensive and don't have as many applications for use in different types of guns.

Here's a recent thread with some feedback about various pellets:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=490962

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

LOOSE POWDER!! LOOSE POWDER!! LOOSE POWDER!! If you don't use loose powder you'll be sorreeee!!....

 

[KansasScout]

The pellets are a little hot for me. My Pietta Navy's in .44 shoot much nicer with mild loads with loose powder. Real blackpowder is not easy to find here so I use pyrodex.

 

[CoRoMo]

As far as hunting goes, Colorado takes that choice away from me. No pellets.

 

[Wildfire]

Loose.

Hey there:
This has been said so many times.
Loose powder can be adjusted pellets can not.
Some states can not use them.
You are stuck with one load with pellets and after testing for accuracy , well most of us will agree that loose powder wins in 98% of the time.

Accuracy holds the power !!!!! 3 and 4" groups are not "GOOD ENOUGH " for hunting. Of course some hunt very short ranges and that may be OK. But most hunt where their shots could get to 100 yards at times or even more.

Some will not agree with my idea of accuracy and that is OK , I am fine with that. You are the one that has to decide what you want.

80 grains will take any buck that 150 will. I have proven this way too many times for any argument . Range ??? Bull !!! Last year I took 2 bucks . 1 at 160 yards and 1 at 184. 80 grains of Pyrodex "P" . 250 grain Barnes MZ expander and rem 209 ML primer from my Encore.

They both fell dead. My Som dropped one at 209 yards . Same load {300} grain Barnes MZ.

LOOSE POWDER............

 

[V1ROT8]

Has anyone explained the logic of "no pellets" for hunting here in Colorado and other states?

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

WildFire, I'vd got to say it again..Sometime's you speak almost as plain as I do and while I respect and admire lot's of people on this site, you make more sense than well over 98% of them.... Hey, I can't help it. I say this because I KNOW that WildFire is right....PS, I wish I had a dollar for every time I'vd shot accurately enough that I could have been ragging a hole at 160 yards with either one of my CVA's or Traditions inlines if I had been firing at paper. Shepherd military sniping scope on the Traditions and a German Zeiss on the CVA..(and it wasn't any trouble or hard to do either)....

"NOBODY LIKE'S TO FIGHT BUT SOMEONE HAS GOT TO KNOW HOW" [USMC]

 

[Havicman]

I've been looking to change to loose powder in my T/C Omega this year. I've always heard that loose powder is more accurate then pellets, but after reading the manual for the Omega I noticed some interesting data. I shoot the XTPs and get very good results from them. My question is why is there so much difference between pellets and loose. According to the manual, again using a 240gr XTP,

2 Pellets = 1889 F.P.S. 1902 Ft. Lbs.
3 Pellets = 2249 F.P.S. 2696 Ft. Lbs. (MAX LOAD)


80 grs. FFG = 1511 F.P.S. 1217 Ft. Lbs.
90 grs. FFG = 1629 F.P.S. 1414 Ft. Lbs.
100 grs. FFG = 1672 F.P.S. 1490 Ft. Lbs.
110 grs. FFG = 1710 F.P.S. 1559 Ft. Lbs.
120 grs. FFG = 1761 F.P.S. 1653 Ft. Lbs.
130 grs. FFG = 1794 F.P.S. 1716 Ft. Lbs.
140 grs. FFG = 1846 F.P.S. 1816 Ft. Lbs.
150 grs. FFG = 1879 F.P.S. 1882 Ft. Lbs. (MAX LOAD)

As you can see 100gr pellets produce a higher velocity and Ft. Lbs than 150gr of loose. I understand about working up a load with loose powder for the best performance, and that it's not about velocities and Ft. Lbs. I'm just curiouse as to why the data on paper seems to say a 150gr load of loose "performs" less than 100gr of pellets, but in the field, loose seems to always perform better then pellets.

 

[scrat]

Depends on what your doing. Loose powder is the prefered. shot them both. Accuracy means didaly squat when shooting at steel plates. so if i am plinking at steel plates then if i have them i use pellets. Other wise loose powder. Problem is with pellets is the broken ones. 2 times i have been had on the pellets. I bought a box of pellots and guess what my son did. Dropped the box. (on accident) however about 15 of them were cracked or just not useable. So ended up breaking them up and shooting them with some loose powder anyhow. Then i bought a box from a gunshop that was closing down. 777 pellets. Same thing when i opened it up about 20 of them were bad so same thing crumbled them up and shot them loose. You know what though those containers are AWESOME. I have used them to hold 50 caliber bullets already lubed. they are awesome.

 

[mykeal]

I don't understand why you say you understand that it's not about velocities and energy, and then say the paper says the higher velocity/energy load performs better. What is your criteria for 'performance'?

 

[Havicman]

I don't like to go strickly by balistics data when choosing what I will be shooting. I will use the ballistic data for a baseline, but I will compair how different loads perform in the field. I don't base performance on the velocity or Ft. Lbs, but on actual field performance. If I load 3 50gr pellets into my ML, that doesn't mean it will preform better than 2 50gr pellets in the field. My question really has to do with the difference between loose powder and pellets. The data in my manual indicates that 100gr pellets achieve about 200 FPS higher velocities and 400Ft. Lbs more energy than the same amount of loose powder. I'm wondering why. Most people I know that shoot loose powder only use about 80gr or less and seem to get the same or better field results as people that shoot 100gr of pellets

 

[arcticap]

Some folks do load more than 100 grains of loose powder to obtain the best results in their rifle as needed for their own hunting environment. And some pellets can match or better that.

I don't see how anyone can honestly claim that loose is always better.

We all know that every gun and load is different, and so are different pellets including the new White Hots.

I don't suppose that anyone can claim to have shot every rifle under every condition imaginable?

Why is 80 grains of loose powder always the best load, or 90 or 100?
It's clearly not for some guns and some bullets require more RPM's to stabilize.

Maybe folks can benefit from the reported experiences of others enough to know that there's no single rule that applies to all muzzle loaders.

There's always going to be a fringe distance where a few more foot pounds of energy and velocity will be of benefit and which can make the difference between a kill and a non-kill.
And no one knows what that range will be before they shoot.
Just as no knows or can reasonably predict which load will shoot best in any gun on any given day.
It's always been said that in the end it's the nut behind the trigger that makes the difference.
As far as barrel harmonics goes, there's velocity ranges that work better than others.
Maybe some velocities can be duplicated by a load of lose powder as well as a variety of pellet loadings or different brands.
And the same applies for bullets, primers, ballistic bridge sub-bases and other projectile loading technologies, like varieties of conicals and their compositions, wads, lubricants, new style breech plugs & nipples, primed brass centerfire cartridge ignition sytems, bore coatings, cyrogenic barrel treatment, barrel & receiver beddings, bore polishing, chemical bore treatments, twist rates and so on.
Something may work when using one variable or combinations of variables and not with another, or others or vice versa.
So maybe we should all remain open minded about not just the bad experiences that folks have reportedly had with pellets, but also remember that there's been a multitude of good experiences reported by pellet users too.
Minute of angle shooting at long range is pretty hard to dispute even though many folks can't personally obtain those results with pellets. But that doesn't mean that their reported results are untrue or inaccurate.
My suggestion is to acknowledge that sometimes pellets can perform just as good as loose and at other times even better.
I would assert that statements to the contrary are unscientific and not supported by facts, but rather are only based on personal opinion and experience.
While personal experience is important, it's limited and doesn't reveal all of the facts.
Maybe some folks can even mix & match loads using both loose powder and pellets to obtain best results?
How would anyone really know or be able to predict if that wouldn't work or not if no one has even bothered to try it?

 

[mykeal]

Arcticap makes a very good point about lack of science and opinion. My question is very basic. You say you don't base performance on velocity or energy numbers, but on something called 'field performance'. What is 'field performance'? How do you determine it?

 

[33rowdy]

I'd like to know what kind of guns you are using for your test. I use 3 pyrodex pellets in my Black Diamond for hunting ever sence I bought it in 2000. Not saying that 2 pellets would of done the same killing 20+ deer over the years but it works great. I chose the pellets for easy field usage. I would like to know about your test of guns. like; How many yards, barrel leingth and twist rate.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Well, I know this. I like inlines because I like building my own shot right on the spot and I like the idea of knowing that I'M the one who made the load that went in my rifle. I also know that if one know's the rifle and has worked out the load data that a good inline will reach on out there and touch something. I use 110 grains of Triple Seven 3fff (normally, sometimes a little more) and I know that when I look through that Shepherd or that Zeiss (OR my ANPVS4 current issue night vision scope if I decide that's what I'm going to need which I don't hardly ever use any more) I can tell within a matter of a very few feet what the range is to the target and sometimes down to within several inches one way or the other. So I know what the rifle is ready to do, front stuffer though it be. The rest of it is up to me. My breathing, my heartbeat, my position, etc etc..I have never really heard or been shown anything 'positively positive' about using pellets other than they may be 'less trouble'. All I have ever heard boil's down to a lot of theory, supposition, rationalizing, and compromising...Just me. People like what they like. I don't judge people but I know the tree by the fruit it bear's and I know I like my inlines and I know that after I'vd done my part getting that rifle ready I'm gonna hit that damn target whatever it be....

 

[qajaq59]

I'm not shooting BP rifles yet, (in a few weeks I will be) but something just jumped out at me. Why would guys used 150 grains in pellet form and only 80 or 90 in loose powder? Is the loose powder that much more powerful? Or did I get the wrong impression when reading the thread?

 

[OrangePwrx9]

qajaq: Can't speak for others, but I stopped using 150 gr. of pellets when I got tired of
a) getting the snot kicked out of me
b) seeing groups that looked like patterns
c) fighting to seat the bullet past crusty grunge in the barrel
d) buying pellets
When I found out 80 or 90 grains of Pyrodex would always get the job done with good accuracy, that was the end of 150 grain loads.

Of course, some guys don't give up as soon as others...or maybe they're trying to kill something really big.

Seriously, these days most of us come to black powder shooting with a background of shooting centerfire rifles. We've been brainwashed into believing high velocity and bone crushing kinetic energy is the only way...so that's the way modern MLs are marketed and the way that many shoot them.

It is ONE way. There is another way that works quite well and is better suited to frontloaders, particularly the more traditional designs. It doesn't rely on large amounts of powder or extreme velocity.
Bob

 

[OrangePwrx9]

Havicman: I've also been puzzled by the disparity between the ballistic performance of Pyrodex pellets vs. loose powder as shown in the TC manuals. Not having a chronograph, I couldn't confirm them, though the pellets did seem to kick harder than an equivalent amount of loose powder. What drove me away from using pellets in my inlines was inconsistent accuracy, fouling and cost.

Recently I bought a copy of Lyman's most recent Black Powder Loading Manual. They present detailed ballistics figures for a huge variety of loads in a number of different test barrels/guns. Some of those tests compare the performance of Pyrodex RS, Pyro pellets and regular black powder when shooting sabot loads from fast twist barrels. Surprisingly, the Lyman figures showed RS and pellets pretty much on par. In fact, the loose RS powder often turned in better velocities than the equivalent load with pellets. The differences were normally around 30 fps or less, but a few went as high as 70 to 100 fps. I can recall seeing one RS load that was 80fps faster than the pellet load, and one pellet load that was 100fps faster than the RS. But mostly loose RS was faster than the pellets by about 20-30fps.

OTOH, Pyrodex, in both loose and pellet form would usually give muzzle velocities that were about 100fps above the fastest black powder load (when loaded by volume). This may be where the disparity in the TC manuals comes from, to answer your question. Pyrodex does a little better on muzzle velocity than black powder generally and TC was using black powder figures.

What really counts more than MV for field performance, is good consistent accuracy with acceptable killing power. Since all three powder types deliver good killing power in equivalent loads; shoot what your gun shoots best.
Bob

 

[qajaq59]

Thanks guys.