Question about AR cleaning,

Status
Not open for further replies.

mljdeckard

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Messages
13,319
Location
In a part of Utah that resembles Tattooine.
Had a novel experience this week. After spending half a day out in the woods and firing a grand total of eight blanks, I spent three evenings back in garrison cleaning my weapon. (It only took me an hour, but we were told up front we would do it for three nights anyway.)

So, after arriving and seeing that the cleaning implements were worn and dirty, with no cleaning agent of any kind provided, (does this sound familiar to any other soldiers?) I saw some other guys had brought stuff from home. So on day 2, I went and bought a can of gunscrubber and my own breakfree. (Spending my birthday money on things the army should provide. I know.)

After making the rifle suspiciously clean, I handed it in, to find that there was significant carbon buildup in the ring of the ledge in the bolt carrier where the rear of the bolt seats. Apparently, since this is a training post with no personalized weapons, no one had reamed this part out on this rifle in a really long time. It had hardened to the point where it wouldn't even show on a dry finger. So I took it back and used the rest of the gunscrubber to blast it out. I was the only guy who did it effectively, because I cheated. Everyone else who got checked for it was there for a long time, rubbing it with swabs ad nauseum.

My point is, I guess I had never seen a bolt carrier that bad before, because all of my personal weapons and all the army rifles I had used before that were cleaned regularly and thoroughly enough that this buildup didn't happen. The armorer told me that the problem is, it builds up so thick, that the bolt can't seat, and won't lock. (I was thinking to myself, that when the rifle is in the process of firing, the carbon is soft enough to be displaced and this kind of failure is unlikely. The impact and heat of prolonged firing would prevent it from accumulating that much.) I shut up. You never win an argument with someone who outranks you.

Was this buildup the result of prolonged use with sloppy cleaning, would it have eventually caused failure to lock, and did I do the best thing I could to clean it? I'm not a certified AR genius of any school, and while I may not have seen it all, I've seen a heck of a lot. This one was new to me.
 
Shooting blanks in them all the time for training is not the same thing as shooting live ammo.

1224.jpg
rcmodel
 
Many moons ago when M16A1s walked the earth this build up was an armorer's delight.....if he was the sort of guy that liked sending troopers back upstairs to clean.

We used worn chamber brushes to clean the bolt hole in the carrier with and used them both with and without patches and with RBC and LSA and PL-special and the illicit can of WD-40. WHen no more debris could be detected the rifles were taken to the armorer. He had a clean white towel on his little door/desk and a flat head screw driver at hand. If everything else passed muster and all that was left was to lightly lube the parts for storage the armorer smiled, stuck that flat head screwdriver in the bolt hole ratt;ed it about slammed the front of the cariier down on his white towel and majically there appeared black crud in the form of carbon flakes on the towel. The trooper then went back to clean a bit more.

Didn't take long for us to include a flat head screw driver in our squad alert kit (we had a large ammo can with extra cleaning supplies and a couple of spare mags for the rifles and pistols stashed in it along with the M-60s' extra cleaning kit and a 40mm brush and thong and spare parts and pins for the guns as we could aquire them)

Using the screwdriver blade to break up the build up before normla cleaning helprd immensly and having our own screw driver allowed us to test one anothers bolt carrier before attempting to get past the armorer.

Armalite's claims or not the crud showed up even on 15 round fam fires we did to check zero.

I believe I have seen adds for a notched ended steel tube with a screw driver handle on it advertised in places like Dillon's Blue Press.

Another spot the armorer delighted in scraping was the two vent holes for this area that are in the "Thumb Spot" on the carrier that operated the dust cover. A small hobby screw driver did those nicely.

We saved worn out bore brushes to use to clean the gas tube atop the bolt carier key. and to work in around the gas tube where it sticks into the cocking handle slot in top of the reciever. This was followed by a Rifle Bore CLeaner soaked large pipe cleaner (or a plain old pipe cleaner if supply could not be convinced they needed to order more of the one inteneded for this by the Army) (you know the fuzzy stuff on a twisted wire you made shapes of in kindergarden) being pushed through the frint of the key right on throudh the bend and constriction and into the colt carrier. Care must be taken to use pipe cleaners that are not rusty as they may break off and be difficult to remove from the bolt carrier.

Pipr cleaners were also great for cleaning around the trigger group with out removing the same. Some guys insisted on always removing everything but the M-16A1's auto sear, and a few even did that. This lead to rifles having the hammer spring installed backwards. Loosing one twist from the sping in the auto sear ment placing the rifle on auto turned it into a manual loader. Becasue of this I discouraged taking out the fire control group except under the armorers direct supervision.

I saw a lot of these pipe cleaners miss used as replacements for a lost firing pin retaining pin, the extractor pin and other parts so watch out for them.

The wire from a wire bound note book was at hand and almost straightened out to allow it to be worked into the gas tube and then twisted and pulled out. This removed some of the white deposits left by blanks in the gas tube and removed constrictions in the gas flow that appearently reduced the speed the carrier was blown back at. It worked best whe the armor was himself a bit naughty and completely removed the tube from the rifle to allow access to both ends. I saw rifles that were turned into manually operated M16A1s restored to full health and vigor with the wire treatment. You do run the risk of gettin gthe wire well and truely stuck or even broken off in the tube and facing willful or negligent destruction charges. My understanding is that neither current blanks nor the M855 ball leave as much residue as the old stuff so this may not be worth the risk. Unless the rifle is sluggish and short stroking enough to not eject, or not pick up a new cartridge from the magazine and no other cause can be found.

Another over looked armorer's favorite was the screw that holds the butt stock on the buffer tube. The looked for rust and mud and crud in both the screw slot and in the drain hole. Unflortunately this caused some guys to take the screw out for cleaning and that meant that the rear take down pin detent and its spring were at risk. Having the rear take down pin fall out of a rifle during movement at night is no picnic.

As you are in Ogden or atleast from there I have to wonder what John Moses or Ed would think of all these AR and trooper frailities.

-Bob Hollingsworth
 
Unfortunately the backlash of the rifle that doesn't need cleaning holds true to today.

Originally when the m16 was issued troops were told that it didn't need to be cleaned AT ALL! Way wrong, unfortunately the Army (as is commonplace) overreacts after the unfortunate combat reality of the necessity for a clean rifle and has built a culture that believes it needs to be spotless. Ive seen countless barrel crowns ruined and bores scored due to endless scraping to remove the slightest carbon. Not to mention all the wasted time and productivity of privates scrubbing and scrubbing. Sorry to say but as you already have noticed until you get some rank you arnt going to be master of your own rifle...

After a few years of enlisted than a bit of cadet, I finally get to hand my M4 to the arms room and reply "stuff it! And dont touch my rifle" to the armors grimace about "Sir there is still oil and carbon on your bolt"

Also get used to several nicknames of stuff that will drive you crazy like calling the locking lugs the "star chamber". There is lotsa stuff like that that just cheezes me off....

-Tsi
 
Well if the enlisted folks weren't spending all that time cleaning, think of the things they could get into...

Remember prior to WWI when the institution of the career PFC was still alive and well, enlisted men spit shined the SOLES of the shoes they weren't wearing. The army has always felt idle hand's are the devils workshop.

To the OP original question: as mentioned something to pick the carbon out is your best bet. Hosing it out with Gunscrubber works well too once you get it softened a bit. We always just let the whole carrier soak for a while in whatever solvent was handy and approved.

-Jenrick
 
-TSI,

When I went through basic with my XM16E1 the Drill Babies insisted on running a jointed steel rod with a bore brush soaked in Brasso through the barrel several times with an electric hand drill spinning the whole mess at high RPM. That and the tumbling bullet tales greatly lowered my opinion of the Drill Sargents in that training company.

On the other hand after a few of those drill and brasso treatments maybe those particular rifles did launch bullets that tumbled in the air. Du-oh!

Indeed I also had much more fun with armorers and EggSpurt NCOs after commissioning than as a snuffy. The army runs on NCOs and most of them are gohd's gift to the officer corps, but for some reason it seems half of everyone that ever made E5 seems to know far less than they think about small arms. Of course there are as many or more officers that are in the same boat. Snuffy just wants to get his rifle turned in and do something more interesting than weapons maitenance....anything.

Armorers are part of Supply Section in most units and thus part of the greater evil that hounds troops in any other job. I can say this only because I never have to deal with a Supply Sargeant boguarding goodies until he can get some sort of favor ever again. Just joking, sort of.

-Bob Hollingsworth
 
Mixed opinions on this subject from very knowledgable people. DPMS's President has stated that carbon-build up here and on the bolt tail is an issue. Armalite and some prominent trainers are of the opinion that the carbon build up is self-limiting.
 
Well, I'm glad to see there is a dedicated tool for it. I'll add it to the list of stuff I take downrange with me when I'm done with Hogwart's School for Language.

I'm just spoiled to being able to drop the parts in a parts washer. ($120, Harbor Freight) And I also agree that the army does more damage than good by having the rifles stripped so often and so overcleaned. Dinged crowns, broken toothbrush bristles, worn finishes, jiggling push pins, etc.

As best as I can tell, the training battalion has a few hundred rifles they rotate to have every soldier here (Over a thousand) to qualify once during their stay here (anywhere from 6 months to 2 years) and at least one very hurried training to react to ambush, and the guys who have to be opfor for this stuff. Most of them are FNs, some of them have been rebuilt.
 
include a flat head screw driver in our squad alert kit (we had a large ammo can with extra cleaning supplies and a couple of spare mags for the rifles and pistols stashed in it along with the M-60s' extra cleaning kit and a 40mm brush and thong and spare parts and pins for the guns as we could aquire them)

Using the screwdriver blade to break up the build up before normla cleaning helprd immensly and having our own screw driver allowed us to test one anothers bolt carrier before attempting to get past the armorer.

That's what I've been using for years to knock the carbon out of my AR bolt carriers.

A thin-bladed, flat-head screwdriver.

screwdriver-carbonscraper.gif

If you practice getting the "feel" with the screwdriver, you can scrape the carbon out chop-chop with your eyes closed.

Waste no time with brushes in the carrier.

The screwdriver is the way.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top