Question about body armor

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qwert65

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Several threads here motivated me to research body armor, and I have some questions that I hope someone can answer. For these purposes assume level 3 armor(no rifle plates)
1) would really light weight(120gr) .357 magnum ammo penetrate ? what if it was fmj? I ask because they seem to use jsp for the tests. I know because it's much more common loading but for testing purposes shouldn't they test fmj?

2) pretty much the same question with . 44 magnum why not test it with fmj?

3) what about HOT .45 colt, .454, .480 etc? I think it would stop them because they aren't pointed. I am not sure.
Info I used was from the standard NIJ qualifications
Thx in advance
 
Several threads here motivated me to research body armor, and I have some questions that I hope someone can answer. For these purposes assume level 3 armor(no rifle plates)
1) would really light weight(120gr) .357 magnum ammo penetrate ? what if it was fmj? I ask because they seem to use jsp for the tests. I know because it's much more common loading but for testing purposes shouldn't they test fmj?

2) pretty much the same question with . 44 magnum why not test it with fmj?

3) what about HOT .45 colt, .454, .480 etc? I think it would stop them because they aren't pointed. I am not sure.
Info I used was from the standard NIJ qualifications
Thx in advance

My expertise on body armor is a bit old, but at that time (when I got my first custom-made vest) the vest was designed to defend against the caliber the officer carried; i.e. if you carried a 9mm your vest was tailored for that.

Naturally, I, like others, added the strike plate in the vest that protected for more powerful projectiles, such as the .357 Magnum and .45 ACP, for example. I'm not up-to-date on the current materials.

Good luck to you.
 
The shape of the bullet is largely irrelevant, as is its velocity... virtually any lead-cored pistol bullet will deform on impact with something it can't penetrate... the greater its frontal surface area relative to its kinetic energy, the LESS likely it is to penetrate... and as it deforms, its frontal area increases as its KE decreases. With a lead core, if it doesn't penetrate, more velocity just means more deformation and LESS chance of penetration.
The US government tries to keep a pretty tight handle on armor-piercing pistol ammo... and they'll put a pretty tight handle on YOU if you make some.
The answer to your question, though is two-part...
A) Body armor is not 100% bulletproof. Particularly if weakened by multiple hits, it CAN fail... though even when it does, it will GREATLY reduce the effectivness of the round. The literature that came with body armor we were issued said that it was designed to 'stop or slow down' bullets. (Comforting, thanks Unka Sam! ... but it was a fair and factual assessment of the armor's capability.)
B) No. Your .454 will almost certainly NEVER penetrate 3A, with or without plates... if it would, the BATFE would have it off the shelves. (still leave a bruise the size of a dinner plate, though)
 
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B) No. Your .454 will almost certainly not penetrate 3A, with or without plates... if it would, the BATFE would have it off the shelves.

But .45-70 out of a BFR will go clean through it, so will a .30-06 out of a TC encore pistol.

Just because it's a handgun, doesn't mean it won't skip right through lvl 3A body armor. Let's just be glad the goblins tend not to use BFRs and TC pistols. Thankfully, the same goes for .454s and Ruger Blackhawks pushing max loas .45 Colt. If they did, I might have to start wearing heavier armor... and that's not fun this time of year down here...
 
I have shot 3A panels many times with a variety of handgun rounds up to stout .44 Magnum and 12 gauge slugs. I have never had a single shot penetrate a panel.....With the slug, I tacked the panel to a piece of wood paneling. The slug wadded up the panel like a baseball and drove it thru the paneling.
 
I was issued metal trauma plate vests 20 years ago, but the ones in my more recent vests are some sort of fiber. The thinking behind doing away with the metal plates was that it could ricochet a round up into the wearer's head.
 
I was issued metal trauma plate vests 20 years ago, but the ones in my more recent vests are some sort of fiber. The thinking behind doing away with the metal plates was that it could ricochet a round up into the wearer's head.

The only thing I can imagine uttering is May the God Bless You.

(My trauma plate from 1996 is not metal anymore.)
 
The shape of the bullet is largely irrelevant, as is its velocity.

Sort of.

When you get the velocity high enough you start to get penetration.

That is why long guns are harder to stop.

Load a .357 into a long barreled rifle and it is likely to go on through.
The major reason is velocity.

When the whole idea of soft body armor started, some vest did get made with enough layers to stop even rifle rounds in testing.

The problem that was quickly discovered was blunt force trauma.
It would be capable of doing enough damage to cause real problems.

the idea of stopping higher power rounds was quickly discarded and the idea of a plate (metal originally) to spread the force out and try to limit blunt force trauma was born.

The plates we use now are designed to reduce the chance of fragmentation of the bullet and rear face spallation of the plate.

I know at least some of these techniques (search and you may find a few mentioned in the open) but it is not a good topic for public discussion (like ceramic armor technology).

There are a number of very much less than obvious 'tricks' that are held closely.

Just a guess, but they may well be covered by patents under 'secrecy orders.'
 
yeah... once you get into RIFLE ballistics, you're in a different ballpark. My comments apply really only to handguns. Most body armor would be hard put to hold up to serious testing with a fmj .223.
 
Thanks for the replies, though I'm still curious as to if .357magnum/.44magnum fmj would penetrate(ie why don't they test vests with them?)
To those who are worried I may have something nefarious in mind, rest assured I have no interest in harming others.( I'd just use a rifle ) it's just certain threads kept mentioning the 5.7 pistol I got curious, looked up body armor and was surprised that for something designed to resist penetration I thought that in testing fmj would be used
 
Some vest are rated for those calibers.

they are not commonly used by criminals, so no idea if DOJ ratings have ever been issued.

It is a money and political issue on the larger scale.

PDs want to have what they need, and the DOJ has some say in what is 'adequate' for routine police use.

Since moisture in the material can easily render it less effective, the ballistic layers must be protected.
Try wearing a plastic bag filled with layers of insulation.

Now do it in the heat.
 
Oh I don't want to buy body armor, nor do I own a 44magnum, 454,etc. My carry gun is a .380 or jframe.
I'm an educated, curious person who started looking in to a subject and hit a wall so to speak so I asked a question. In other words if I'm selling you a vest and say it stops all 45acp rounds that makes sense, saying it's rated for a specific loading makes me curious.

The same website I got the ratings from mentioned that pistols fired from rifles will defeat armor, therefore obviously they can penetrate, just a matter of velocity. I then noticed that they didn't seem to test 125gr 357 which I though was a common loading. So I asked a question.
I assume police would buy their own Better armor if they saw a need
 
pistols fired from rifles will defeat armor

I think if you can figure out a way to fire a BFR in 45/70 out of any kind of rifle, it will go through whatever you want it to.:uhoh:
 
I am one of those "quasi" experts on body armor. I never worked for a body armor company nor am I a scientists or engineer, but I am a dealer of body armor and have shot plenty of it at the range. I am very well read on the topic.

First, if you want to get real answers about armor than the internet is the worst place. You can go ahead and email the company representatives directly. I know if you email Point Blank they will gladly answer your questions in great detail about any of their products. You get answers right from the people who design these vests and work at making body armor from day to day.

Second, lets talk about body armor basics. There are two basic measures of armor. #1) Whether or not it will stop the round #2) If it does stop the round, than is the pressure to the person wearing it at an acceptable level. Let me give you a quick demonstration of what I mean by "pressure".

http://youtu.be/tdPBP9NFFac

This is a European made vest that is being demonstrated. They have different standards overseas, but in a lot of ways they are very similar. In the video, it looks like the man is probably wearing the equivalent of a Level II vest. Notice when the man gets shot, he is stunned for about 10 seconds. The bullet does not go through, but the resulting pressure hits the man as if someone punched him in the gut hard. A 9mm pistol is being utilized for the demonstration. Now a .44 Magnum may not go through, but its going to hit this man with twice the force probably putting him out of action for a good minute or more and maybe even causing internal bleeding from the resulting force.

So the reason why people wear IIIA armor and/or large trauma plates is not only to protect against a larger round, but to reduce the time that you are stunned so you can deliver a counter attack. An officer wearing IIA armor who gets hit with the 9mm is going to be out of action for 20-30 seconds or more whereas an officer wearing IIIA with the 8X10 special threat plates may not be out of action at all.

Third, body armor is generally uncomfortable and is not "concealable". The body armor carrier designs have improved greatly over the years resulting in a more comfortable armor, but they are all still very uncomfortable. Each vest comes in a waterproof bag and the internals of the vest itself consist of many layers. Wearing a IIIA vest is about equivalent to wearing a nice down jacket in terms of heat. You dont see many officers nowadays wearing a big winter jacket and thats because their vest gives them all the heat they need.

The IIIA vest makes you look like a linebacker and its easy to spot someone wearing one of those from blocks away. The II vest is also obvious to see. The IIA is the most concealable, but the astute person will wonder what you have on under your clothes. The only real way to conceal body armor is during winter time under heavy clothes. During the summer, its next to impossible.

Professional users of body armor all complain about having to wear the armor all day. Some professional users have switched to an external vest because its not so close to the body and air can get through a lot easier behind the vest. If you tried to wear armor all day you would change your mind about wearing a vest. Its not comfortable at all and makes you look 2 sizes larger then you are.

Fourth, the vest only covers so much of your body. There are little spaces like above your neck, your armpits, your groin, legs and arms which can be easily hit...not to mention your head. Plenty of officers have been shot and killed despite wearing the vest.

Finally, to answer your question the vest will stop all of the rounds you mentioned. In carbine form though it may not. Here is a youtube video which demonstrates a variety of rounds which were stopped by the IIA vest. The 44 Magnum and 45 ACP were stopped by the IIA vest, but when the 44 Mag went into a 20 inch lever action carbine it went right through. Keep in mind the force generated by the .44 Magnum in the pistol or the 00 Buck in the video would be enough to crack ribs and cause internal bleeding not to mention you would be buckled up on the ground in great pain.

http://youtu.be/KZN97VHvot0

Many professional users in risky areas opt for IIIA with hard special threat plates because if shot then they can immediately respond. Anything less and they might be in some pain stunned and, in that time, the other person can shoot a few more rounds.
 
These guys can answer most any question you have on vest.

http://bulletproofme.com/

I did some testing on a level II vest years ago. I shot it with every thing from a 22 up to a 44mag and none of them got through it. Now a 223 out of a mini 14 went right through. All shots from 1' away most barrels were 4" to 6". I may still have a copy of the reports around somewhere. I think I still have the bullets that were used out in my reloading bench. Sharp pointy bullets at high velocity were what tended to go through the vest panels.

WB
 
I visited that website, they list the same things as the NIJ. I'm not interested in blunt trauma, again I'm not planning on shooting a vest or wearing one. I just saw what I thought was an inconsistency so I asked. Another way to ask it is has anyone shot a vest with a hot fmj .44 mag? Everything I see uses jsp is the .44 mag just too wide to penetrate?
 
I forget to add something about weight. The various vests weigh between 4-8 lbs depending upon threat level. Adding on an additional front and back special threat plate would easily add another 3-4 lbs. If you want a vest with rifle plate than thats 16 lbs total.

The average officer wears a total of 25 lbs of gear on a daily basis. Just imagine doing a sprint at a track but with a 25 lb weight from the gym in hand....
 
Penetration of armor can be summed up as a question of pressure. Small diameter fast bullets will generate a higher pressure on impact and will be able to part the fibers of most/all soft armor and penetrate. Larger bullets will have a tougher time.

-edit-: To address why JSP vs FMJ, part of it is under those velocities and pressures copper and lead both begin to flow like water, thus a copper jacket versus an exposed lead core is not going to change their impact characteristics in a meaningful way.
 
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The IIIA vest makes you look like a linebacker and its easy to spot someone wearing one of those from blocks away. The II vest is also obvious to see. The IIA is the most concealable, but the astute person will wonder what you have on under your clothes. The only real way to conceal body armor is during winter time under heavy clothes. During the summer, its next to impossible.

Not entirely true, I once wore a PASGT vest that I got at a garage sale for $5 under a hoodie around a few of my friends without them noticing until I told one of them to punch me in the chest and after doing so he asked what the hell I was wearing under my hoodie. Hoodies are excellent for concealing body armor if you're in a cooler area.
 
What about teflon and cooking spray. If you covered your 357's with teflon spray, would they go right through?
 
What about teflon and cooking spray. If you covered your 357's with teflon spray, would they go right through?

Teflon coating does not make bullets any more able to penetrate anything. The media made this up after they learned that the KTW armor piercing handgun ammunition was teflon coated, the real purpose of the teflon coating however is that KTW bullets were made out of steel which isn't that nice on rifling.

EDIT:
It was KTW not TNW and the bullets were made out of steel
 
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