Question about handling and storing BP

[eagle24]

OK, I had to order some Goex fffg from Graf & Sons. I called all the gunshops near me and all they had were substitute pellets. None that I could find carried BP. Could'nt even find Pyrodex P. So I'll have a couple of lbs of Goex @ $22 per lb.

I know this stuff is less stable than smokeless powder. What precautions do I need to take in storing and handling BP? I won't keep it on the fireplace hearth, but is it OK to keep it on my reloading bench in the open with my smokeless powders?

 

[Low Key]

BP isn't unstable like dynamite so it won't blow up on you if you shake it too hard, but you do have to use the same precautions that you would with smokeless...don't have any around sparks or open flame. BP is classified as an explosive and shops that have more than 25lb have to take special precautions on storage, but you won't have to worry about all that. Sit it out on your workbench if you want to, just leave the lid on it because BP attracts moisture out of the air and will clump up if you leave it exposed to the open air for long enough.

"Once you start down the dark path...forever will it dominate your destiny."
Yoda

 

[Father Knows Best]

+1 to everything Low Key said. Don't sweat it. Just remember to clean up and seal everything up tight before you light that cigar.

Oh, and if you spill some, do NOT use your wife's vacuum to clean it up....

 

[unspellable]

Handling BP

I've always been a bit nervous about the idea of running it through a press mounted powder measure. BP is sensitive to crushing if it grain is caught in the works, smokeless isn't. Also, being easier to ignite, I'd worry more about static electricity. Drag your feet across the carpet and you can work up quite a spark.

 

[Father Knows Best]

It's a myth!

I've always been a bit nervous about the idea of running it through a press mounted powder measure. BP is sensitive to crushing if it grain is caught in the works, smokeless isn't. Also, being easier to ignite, I'd worry more about static electricity. Drag your feet across the carpet and you can work up quite a spark.

Relax. It's a myth that you can cause black powder to ignite with static electricity. See this link, where they conducted experiments with up to 40,000 volts in an unsuccessful attempt to ignite black powder: http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/sparks/sparks.html
They even crushed the grains into a fine powder, and still couldn't get it to ignite! They even offer a nice explanation as to why you can't ignite it with direct application of electric sparks. Black powder, being composed largely of carbon, is an excellent conductor. Therefore, it does not heat up appreciably even when extremely high voltage is put through it.

I've loaded tens of thousands of rounds of black powder cartridges using box-stock Dillon progressive presses (RL550B for .44-40, .44 Russian and .45 Colt and SL900 for 12 gauge shotshells). I've never had a problem, and don't expect to.

 

[unspellable]

BP ignition

So why did the powder works blow up?

 

[Father Knows Best]

So why did the powder works blow up?

I don't know which powder works you are referring to, but I am well aware that powder works do sometimes blow up. There are lots of things that could cause ignition. They all involve heat. Powder works are full of equipment that can get very, very hot. Failed bearings in conveyors have been cited as the cause of grain elevator explosions. They heat up enough to exceed the flash point of the grain dust. The same thing can happen in powder mills. Short circuits can change electrical paths and cause heating the same way that an electric stove or hair dryer works. Static electricity cannot, however, set off black powder on its own.

 

[Beartracker]

Eagle24, Does that $22.00 include hasmet and shipping? That's really high for Goex. Mike

 

[Manyirons]

So why did the powder works blow up?

REAL Apples&Oranges comparason! Your home, and mine aint no industrial works and processing plant with thousands of pounds of chemicals in various stages of preperation!

Comparing the difference, you and i could, for the next several decades do nothing BUT juggle cans of black powder while dragging our feet for static charge and in all that not create 1/10,000 of 1% of what can go wrong in that factory in ONE SECOND.

In brief, sleep soundly, you aint goin' ta go boom!

 

[eagle24]

Beartracker, Yep that's the cost including hazmat and shipping. Probably should have ordered more, but not knowing which powder I will end up liking for the long haul I just got 2 lbs.

Greg

 

[gmatov]

Greg,

BP is classified as an explosive. All well and good. It lets go at X feet per second.

Pyrodex is not classified as an explosive. Yet Pawlak, the co-inventor, and part owner of the first Pyrodex plant was killed when his Pyrodex plant blew up in 1976.

So, do you fear to breathe when you have this fearsome explosive in your hands? Hell, no. You measure it, you load it, you shoot it. You don't smoke while you are doing the loading, at least I don't, and I do smoke, but after it is loaded I might light a smoke.

Not to be all THAT feared. Just a little common sense and you are as safe as in your mother's arms.

Cheers,

george

 

[unspellable]

ignition

Here where I live they still talk about the starch works blowing up. Every once in a while there's a grain elevator explosion. I would suppose that if you went at it in the wrong way it would be possible to have airborne powder dust when making gun powder.

A static discharge may not directly raise the temperature of the powder if its sufficiently conductive but it does raise air temperature to well above any flash pont. That's why the spark is visable, the air has been raised to an incandescent temperature. I think I remember seeing somewhere mention of trying to ignite BP with a static discharge with no results, but I would still take precautions against a static discharge. May be a belt and suspenders approach but too safe is a lot better than not safe enough.

The powder measure question is not an issue for me at present as I'm only using BP in my front stuffers, but I've been toying with the idea of loading a few cartridges with it. Maybe some 45 Colt for my C&B conversion. As idle speculation I've been wondering what it would do in my 445 SuperMag.

 

[eagle24]

Thanks for all the info. It's kinda what I figured myself. I started thinking about it when I called and tried to find BP available locally. All the gun shops told me the same thing, "too many regulations, not worth handling it". Several also told me "nobody uses it anymore, they all use pellets and modern substitutes". Guess they have never met you folks. I'll just use some common sense and not store my BP on the heater. Based on what I have learned here, I'm probably in more danger with the laquer thinner fumes in my shop.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

There's a lot of variables in there.

Black powder burns pretty quick, but only goes "boom" in confinement. I haven't worked up the ennui to light off a whole pound of it at once, but if you have it in an unopened container on the bench or some loose droppings around your loading area and it does go up through careless application of spark/flame the result is going to be "woosh" (and a lot of smoke) and not "bang".

Your worst injuries are what your wife'll do to you for smoking up the place.

Even if you set off a loaded cylinder with a ball in it that's not lined up with a gun barrel my money says it ain't going too far. Similar stuff happens with cased ammo that 'goes off' for whatever reason outside of a chamber or barrel. It may well go pop, but for the most part the powder just burns in its newfound lack of confinement and the projectile is lucky to go more than a few inches.

If you light a closed can of powder off somehow... Well, I took to taking my cans of Goex with that last little bit in them that you can never quite get out and just lighting them off with a piece of cannon fuse. They split and take off like rockets, but it's easy to see that even this tiny amount of powder is getting wasted as burnoff and not explosive force. If you have one of those plastic pyrodex jars your worst case scenario is probably a big flame for about half a seond and a melty plastic mess where the jar used to be.

Not that I recommend you go trying it.

 

[unspellable]

how fast

If you light off a pile of powder you won't be able to get away from it fast enough to avoid a nasty burn. I speak from painful experience. (Guess that's why they invented fuse.)

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Well, if'n you got your face over it you're probably gonna get an impromtu shave and maybe a tan for your trouble.

Your blink reflex ought to be fast enough. Your move-your-head reflex probably isn't. Won't kill ya, but won't be pleasant.

Of course, one of the basics is to work with small amounts at a time and keep the rest in the container, preferably a coupla feet away from where you're working. If a small amount gets ignited (six chamberfulls, say...) the inferno is going to be pretty small and burn out pretty danged quick.

I've been over and around powder that's gone off before. I burnt my hand once, but nothing serious. Smoked myself up pretty good a few times, messing around doing stupid stuff.

Sounds like I should get the old camcorder out and do some demonstrations on lighting off various amounts in various configurations. Might be a good resource, safetywise.

 

[Mikem]

thought id add

Just thought that i would add my two cents. I have experimented with bp several times trying to get it to explode, and i have concluded that unless the bp is under a lot of pressure if it ignites you will only have flame to deal with, o and i couln't get cigertettes to ignite trails of bp

 

[mec]

"Well, if'n you got your face over it you're probably gonna get an impromtu shave and maybe a tan for your trouble.."

Pretty much exactly what happens. A friend poured about a pound down a gopher hole and laid a fuse to it. After a while, nothing happened so he went up to re-fuse it. Peered into the gopher hole from standing up distance and "FOOMP!"
Red face, total eyebrow removal and no further injuries.

 

[Old Dragoon]

I was on the firing line at Friendship one day a million years ago in another lifetime and a shooter about 4 shooters down didn't clear his bbl after his shot, he was pouring from the horn into the rifle and it went off. Looked like a rocket on a rope around the guy's neck and shoulder didn't hurt him or the horn but that is the fastest powder horn I have ever seen. All over in a flashhhhhhhhhh! SWOOOOOSH!

 

[gmatov]

OD, You didn't get hurt falling down and laughing, did you?

BP is MORE stable than smokeless powders, all the cautions on smolkeless tell you to check for gases or mists rising from powder stored for any length of time, the chemicals can break down and the powder become dangerous.

BP, at its worst, will lose potency, when stored improperly. There has been powder over 100 years old opened from its original container that shot as well as new stuff does.

Cheers,

George

 

[Old Dragoon]

Nope I was too stunned to say anything, i just gaped at the spectacle. One of those you NEVER forget. I can't say I got away scot free either. Dummy here shot his ramrod downrange. Ok it was my first competition at Friendship..from then on I stayed on the Primitive Range, I preferred those targets anyway. Axe, candle, crosssticks, cards spot on the log, etc. Try splitting a 32 Cal ball on an axe. Did it once out of several tries. Once we had a molded clay medallion to shoot on the first shot, the second shot was the string that had held the medallion. HUH???

 

[gmatov]

OD,

Did you hit the target with the ramrod? One of these forums someone was talkin' about tryin' that. Wood, mebbe, steel or brass rod, close to a half pound "ball", kick a little bit. Never heard of any guns blowin' up when someone shot their ramrod, though.

Cheers,

George

 

[Old Dragoon]

If I remember right the course was 50 yd. and the ramrod went 25 and stuck in the dirt. regular kick as I had the ball in there too. Don't remember where the ball went or if it even hit the target.