Question about IMR-4227

[Mr_Flintstone]

I got started using IMR-4227 in .30 carbine during a “shortage” some time back, and have continued to use it for Magnum handgun cartridges Ever since. It doesn’t get the love that H110 does, but that’s OK. To each his own.

In the following years, I found lots of other uses for IMR-4227, including non-magnum handgun loads, and full power rifle loads. It’s not as efficient in calibers like .38 Special, but it works great; and it doesn’t produce the fastest rifle loads, but it is very consistent and accurate.

Now to my question... Why have manuals stopped listing IMR-4227 for everything but Magnum handgun loads? As late as 2003, the IMR manuals listed loads for .30-30, .308, .30-06, the Mauser cartridges, and many others, but no more. I like it, and will continue to use it for a great many things. I just wondered why it has been erased from much practical use.

 

[sfl_gunner]

I found this stuff from Speer. I have 2 pounds of IMR 4227 sitting around. I might try it for 308 myself and see how it goes.

 

[mcb]

I used it for subsonic 300 BO. It was noticably quieter than H110 for the same velocity while still reliably cycling my AR.

 

[AJC1]

They try and keep up with the powder industry and publish new data. For those of us motivated we by older manuals for this exact reason, along with chamberings not common any longer like 7.7

 

[labnoti]

Maybe because it isn't made anymore. It was replaced with H4227. I believe IMR 4227 was discontinued and H4227 was relabeled as IMR 4227. I really don't care about the interchangeability debate myself, but data publishers may have just decided to forgo the dilemma and omit it where it wasn't popular.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Maybe because it isn't made anymore. It was replaced with H4227. I believe IMR 4227 was discontinued and H4227 was relabeled as IMR 4227. I really don't care about the interchangeability debate myself, but data publishers may have just decided to forgo the dilemma and omit it where it wasn't popular.

I have heard many a story on this, but no one seems to know exactly when this change occurred. Some have gone as far as to say the same as you, but then that it switched again back to the original IMR-4227 at some point. The whole debacle about whether it’s made in. Canada or Australia comes to mind as well. Perhaps confusion has lead to the downfall of this once useful powder.

 

[BC17A]

Maybe because it isn't made anymore. It was replaced with H4227. I believe IMR 4227 was discontinued and H4227 was relabeled as IMR 4227. I really don't care about the interchangeability debate myself, but data publishers may have just decided to forgo the dilemma and omit it where it wasn't popular.

Other way around. H4227 was discontinued and IMR4227 is still available.

 

[labnoti]

Well, the way I understand it, it was IMR 4227 that was discontinued and H4227 was relabeled as IMR 4227. So while they only sell a product labeled as IMR 4227 nowadays, it's actually produced as and where the H4227 was previously and the original source of IMR 4227 no longer produces it. That is what my internet research turned up, but I have nothing of authority on the subject. If this is true, it begs the question whether the old IMR 4227 data can be used with the new IMR 4227. I think it is generally safe to do so if all other standard precautions are followed. But it is a different thing to load cartridges for your own use than it would be for a business to publish data. It would be negligent if they continued to publish old data they knew was for a different powder.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

I picked up a fresh new 1 lb container of IMR 4227 a few hours ago at Bass Pro Shops, I purchased it online August 21, 2020. Here's two photos I just took, the label on this container shows Manufactured in Canada, Packaged in the USA.



I purchased this due to the volume of handgun load data using IMR 4227 in some vintage Speer Reloading Manuals I have which definitely specify IMR 4227 (not H4227). I'm looking forward to doing some load development with IMR 4227.

My internet research indicated H4227 was manufactured in Australia. For me it's macht's nichts, No de ase, at all since the identifying label on the container matches the load data I plan to use.

A vintage THR thread on this topic.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/imr-4227-vs-h4227.775435/

That includes verbiage that for a period of time, containers labeled IMR 4227 also said Manufactured in Australia. Prior to, and after that period containers of IMR 4227 said (and continue to say) Made in Canada, at least in North America.

Another mentioning the ADI Manufactured in Australia connection to H4227 after the war surplus material H4227 was exhausted, and for a period of time, on containers of IMR 4227 sold in North America.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/old-imr-4227-vs-new-h4227-load-data.665839/

I decided to try IMR 4227 as a potential alternative to H110 = W296. I did a search on AmmoSeek for 2400 and every retailer with 2400 in stock would require I pay shipping and HazMat fees, while I was able to avoid those factors in my purchase of IMR 4227, H110, and a number of other powders I've purchased over the past 2 months.

 

[DocRock]

Big fan of IMR4227 in multiple roles,chief among them being my preferred cast bullet load. It's a bit dirty, but that's its only downside vs great versatility.

 

[BC17A]

All I know is the original slower "Hodgdon Extreme" H4227 is long gone. Looking through older IMR manuals and comparing with Hodgdon's website shows some IMR4227 data identical or within a grain or two. I'm guessing that the difference has more to do with the current pressure testing method, along with lot variations, than with any changes to the powder. So reducing the "max only" loads in the IMR manual by 10% puts them very close to, or below the starting loads from Hodgdon's site.

 

[markr6754]

I shot some loads I made up with IMR 4227 in 357 Mag...my first time loading for revolver. I’ll have to go back and check the load books, but 9.0gr was too soft, and 10.0gr was too hot for a short Ruger SP101.

I guess 0.5gr steps are pretty steep, so I’ll be testing around the 9.5gr load.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Well this table by ADI shows they find AR2205 roughly equivalent to H4227, IMR 4227, H110, and W296, within the context of all their weasel words on this page, as well as Norma R-123, AA 1680, and Vhitavuori N120.

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/powder-equivalents/

I'm most definitely NOT using IMR 4227 load data with H110 or W296 powders nor vice-versa, but that's just me. I have separate data for H110 & W296 thank you very much, as well as some H110 powder FWIW.

Here's a thread from elsewhere saying H4227 is still being manufactured by ADI as AR2205.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?312459-H-4227-vs-imr-4227-whats-the-difference

 

[Typetwelve]

That I've seen, IMR4227 (in 44 mag or 460), is very close to H110. Typically, the charges are not much more of a 1 grain spread from min to max and the performance is very close.

I too recently picked up IMR4227 from Bass Pro...just because. I've found that with a 240g Zero 44mag load, it is extremely accurate in my Henry and super redhawk. More accurate than I've got from either 2400 or H110.

 

[buck460XVR]

I too use quite a bit of IMR4227 in my big boomers. Because of the confusion between IMR4227 and H4227, I have contacted Hodgdon several times about it. Initially, I contacted them about H4227 and IMR4227 being the same powder like H110/W296. I was told no, they are not the same and to make sure I used recipes appropriate for the brand name. Later when I heard about the switch over, I contacted them again and was told as what has been stated here, that the original IMR4227 was discontinued and H4227 was rebranded as IMR4227. When asked how the switch over was safe when at one time I was told they were not interchangeable, the reply was, there is not enough difference to make a difference, safety wise. I would assume they thought about this long and hard. IME, at least in the calibers I use it for, you cannot get enough of it in a case to be dangerous. I find that it shoots the most accurately and the cleanest either right at the point of compressed or compressed.

 

[Charlie98]

I've found IMR4227 to be very good in Magnum handgun cartridges... fired in rifle-length barrels. It is my go-to powder for cast bullet in my .41MAG Marlin 1894, but while it works in my pistols, it is not very efficient... but it does work. I read an article somewhere that the author raved about IMR4227 in the .45 Colt, I tried that as well with disappointing results. I prefer other powders for my Magnum handgun loads... H110/W296 for full-power jacketed bullets and some cast bullets, and powders like Unique and 2400 for cast bullets. I have found, using standard load data, IMR4227 to produce less velocity than 2400, and even less than H110/W296... so if you are looking for max velocity, there is only one choice.

I have also used IMR4227 in some cast rifle loads... .30-30, .308, and even .348WCF. It worked well enough, but I didn't find it any more better than IMR4198 in those applications. It would certainly work there, however, if that's all you had.

The OP mentions use of IMR4227 in cartridges like the .30-06... but with no context... are these loads with cast bullets at lower velocity, or are they talking jacketed bullets at higher velocity? I don't see anywhere IMR4227... a very fast rifle powder if viewed that way... would work with standard velocity jacketed loads. I've seen where some are using IMR4198 for .223 when used in pistol-length AR's (etc...) and even that powder is almost too fast.

 

[labnoti]

My internet research indicated H4227 was manufactured in Australia. For me it's macht's nichts, No de ase, at all since the identifying label on the container matches the load data I plan to use.

A vintage THR thread on this topic.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/imr-4227-vs-h4227.775435/

That includes verbiage that for a period of time, containers labeled IMR 4227 also said Manufactured in Australia. Prior to, and after that period containers of IMR 4227 said (and continue to say) Made in Canada, at least in North America.

Another mentioning the ADI Manufactured in Australia connection to H4227 after the war surplus material H4227 was exhausted, and for a period of time, on containers of IMR 4227 sold in North America.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/old-imr-4227-vs-new-h4227-load-data.665839/

Ah, so my understanding was outdated. I had read about ADI and the label/source confusion but got my understanding of the final outcome wrong. Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

My question to Hodgdon from a couple years ago, and their (somewhat ambiguous) answer.

Me:
Message: I have conflicting reports lately about 4227 powder. Are Hodgdon's H4227 and IMR4227 the same powder with different labels, or different powders completely. Is either the same as the old IMR 4227? Do they use the same load data, and will load data from older manuals still be accurate?

Hodgdon:
Response: H4227 is not made any more, the two powders are not exactly the same but they are so close in burn speed and fill ratio that we say that you can use the same data as long as you use the starting load and work up to the max watching for pressure signs.

 

[Typetwelve]

The info for xxx4227 is confusing. Look at Hodgdon's site and they'll still list some loads for "H4227" others for "IMR4227".

For a 240g 44 magnum, they list IMR4227, for 460 S&W they list H4227. Hornady uses IMR4227 for both, so does Lyman.

 

[DukeConnor]

imr 4227 is my go to powder for 300 bo subs. it doesn't overheat the can.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

The info for xxx4227 is confusing. Look at Hodgdon's site and they'll still list some loads for "H4227" others for "IMR4227".

For a 240g 44 magnum, they list IMR4227, for 460 S&W they list H4227. Hornady uses IMR4227 for both, so does Lyman.

I can't speak WRT H4227, but the online Hodgdon Reloading Data Center includes loads for powders that are no longer manufactured / marketed such as Winchester Supreme 780 as one example, my guess is for those that own that powder despite no longer being manufactured / marketed Hodgdon H414 now also falls in that category (but Winchester 760 continues to be manufactured / marketed).

I reckon the guidance to start at starting load data with xxx4227 as a safe beginning with either flavor and work up as others have posted is reasonable, and evidently that guidance also applies to ADI AR2205 not only WRT xxx4227, but also 4 other powders sold with 5 different marketing labels. I suppose someone highly interested in xxx4227 could compare current and vintage load data to ADI AR2205. Not me personally as the label on the powder I purchased matches the load data I plan to use, plus I have no idea if ADI powders are available for purchase in the USA with the ADI marketing labels, and if so, when retail availability of ADI powders with the ADI marketing labels might resume being readily available for retail purchase in the USA. Plain H4350 is in short enough supply here currently.

 

[Jonesy814]

On January 29, 2019, I contacted Hodgdon about IMR-4227 and H-4227 in regards to loading 357. Here is the answer I got with my name redacted.

Hello Xxxxx

IMR 4227 and Hodgdon H4227 are very close in burn speed. We consider the data with Hodgdon H4227 and IMR 4227 to be interchangeable. With that , always begin load development by starting at the published starting load and working up slowly watching for pressure signs. We have recently discontinued H4227 and now package only under the IMR line. Here is our data for the .357 Mag with H4227 and the bullet weights you asked about.

Cartridge:

357 Magnum

Load Type:

Pistol

Starting Loads

Maximum Loads


Bullet Weight (Gr.)

Order BW

Powder

Bullet Diam.

C.O.L.

Grs.

Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure

Grs.

Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure



110 GR. HDY XTP

110

H4227

.357"

1.590"

18.9

1774

29,600 CUP

21.0

1900

35,500 CUP



125 GR. HDY XTP

125

H4227

.357"

1.590"

18.0

1692

34,400 CUP

20.0

1839

42,000 CUP



140 GR. HDY XTP

140

H4227

.357"

1.590"

16.2

1541

33,100 CUP

18.0

1685

42,600 CUP



146 GR. SPR JHP

146

H4227

.357"

1.535"

14.5

1440

34,300 CUP

16.0

1566

42,700 CUP



158 GR. HDY XTP

158

H4227

.357"

1.580"

14.5

1402

34,600 CUP

16.0

1520

42,600 CUP



170 GR. SIE JHC

170

H4227

.357"

1.580"

13.0

1272

32,300 CUP

14.5

1395

41,200 CUP



180 GR. NOS PART

180

H4227

.357"

1.575"

12.7

1247

36,900 CUP

13.7

1308

40,900 CUP


Jason Waller

Hodgdon Powder Company

6430 Vista Drive

Shawnee, Kansas 66218

[email protected]

913-745-0846

 

[Mr. Zorg]

I got started using IMR-4227 in .30 carbine during a “shortage” some time back, and have continued to use it for Magnum handgun cartridges Ever since. It doesn’t get the love that H110 does, but that’s OK. To each his own.

In the following years, I found lots of other uses for IMR-4227, including non-magnum handgun loads, and full power rifle loads. It’s not as efficient in calibers like .38 Special, but it works great; and it doesn’t produce the fastest rifle loads, but it is very consistent and accurate.

Now to my question... Why have manuals stopped listing IMR-4227 for everything but Magnum handgun loads? As late as 2003, the IMR manuals listed loads for .30-30, .308, .30-06, the Mauser cartridges, and many others, but no more. I like it, and will continue to use it for a great many things. I just wondered why it has been erased from much practical use.

There's info available at this link showing IMR 4227 load data for .30 Carbine, but I didn't see load data using IMR 4227 for .308 Winchester nor .30-06

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Vendor Supplied Load Data/

My internet research has some reports the absolutely "original" H4227 was surplus material from military loading of the .30 Carbine cartridge but nothing especially definitive WRT that much like my other internet research WRT H4227 & IMR 4227 histories. Hodgdon has quite a history with marketing salvage military smokeless powders though, and that *might* fit with internet posts saying H4227 was manufactured in Scotland by Nobel before Hodgdon offered it under Hodgdon's designation.

* Edited to fix the web link

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

This is the last manual from IMR to give load data for IMR 4227 in most major rifle calibers. http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/IMR/IMRHandloadersGuide.pdf It is from May 2003.

It was also in the 2001 edition. http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Man...R Handloaders Guide for Smokeless Powders.pdf

Note that in the 2004 edition, IMR 4227 was removed from most calibers. http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/IMR/IMR2004.pdf

It’s of note that Hodgdon bought IMR in 2003. Despite the fact that around this time is when the changeover in 4227 supposedly took place, and most 4227 loads were removed from the manual, the loads for .30 carbine and .357 Magnum rifle remained exactly the same.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

My Speer Reloading Manual 14th Edition shows .308 & .30-06 loads using IMR 4227 with their 110 grain HP bullet #1835, those loads are still on the Rifle Reloading section of Speer's website.

https://www.speer.com/reloading/rifle-data.html

I now see some others exist in the older IMR pamphlet at the link I previously posted, IMR 4227 for .308 Winchester and. 30-06 Springfield, and even .30-40 Krag. But I see the link in my prior post didn't post here well. I'll try again.

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Vendor Supplied Load Data/IMR Handloaders Guide for Smokeless Powders.pdf

That's better. That pamphlet shows 05/01 on the final page. In fact it's the same web link you used for this data but specific to that pamphlet rather than all the vendor load data, which was the more general link in my most recent prior post.

Apparently you've found the answer to your own question in your OP at this point.