Question about M1Carbines

[DonTremaine]

I have what I believe is an Inland Arms carbine 30 cal. The stock has the serial number stamped on the left side of the butt stock. This matches the number on the receiver. On the right side of the butt stock there is the crossed cannons. The final stamp has what looks like NPM but I believe the stock is from Inland Arms. The serial number is 949xxx It has only six digits. Is this possible?
Don Tremaine

 

[rcmodel]

Yes its possible if it is an early one.

Inland Division of General Motors
1 - 5 (Tool Room Models) (Nov. 1941)
6 - 999,999 (May 1942 - Sept. 1943)
2,912,520 - 3,212,519 (Sept. 1943 - Jan. 1944)
4,879,526 - 5,549,820 (Jan. 1944 - Aug. 1944)
6,219,689 - 6,449,867 (Aug. 1944 - Nov. 1944)
6,629,884 - 6,664,883 (Nov. 1944 - Jan. 1945)
6,664,884 - 7,234,883 (Jan. 1945 - Aug. 1945)
7,369,661 - 8,069,660 (Jan. 1945 - Aug. 1945)

NPN is National Postal Meter, who also made M1 Carbines during WWII.

Their stocks were marked:
TN = Trimble Nursery & Furniture Co. Rochester, NY
Or TNT = Trimble Nursery & Furniture Co. Rochester, NY

Not to say Inland could not have used NPM stocks on occasion.

Or it was changed out in a gun cleaning party in the mud somewhere?
Or replaced during a ordanance rebuild.

rc

 

[Kp321]

The carbine in question has probably been rebuilt numerous times so could be a real mixmaster. The s/n stamped on the stock is something that was done in another country, not the US. I have seen that on carbines that have been returned from Bavaria and Italy for sure, may be others. We gave/sold carbines to many other countries after WWII and Korea.

 

[hso]

Pics of all markings and the carbine would be helpful. Especially of the barrel markings, sight, trigger housing/safety, rear sights.

As pointed out there are no US serial numbers on stocks. The marking in the sling cutout tells you where the stock came from and RC has identified the factory sources for Inland. None of that stays fixed over time and the '42-'43 Inland would have probably had the rear sight and safety replaced with the "upgrades" late in WWII or after. They frequently have several internal parts exchanged with other manufacturer's parts and furniture frequently gets swapped around.

 

[DonTremaine]

I was only allowed to post 4 pics. I have 3 more. It has the flipper type safety and an IS stamped into the metal part that holds the barreled receiver to the stock. It also has a bayonet lug. I hope I've got all of the numbers. The hand guard is a two rivit design with I believe with the shallow sight groove
Thanks, Don

 

[Jim K]

The serial number was put on the stock by some other country (note the European style "4" and "7").

The "OI" indicates the handguard was made by S.E. Overton Co. (a furniture maker before the war), for Inland. The FJA cartouche is that of Col. Frank J. Atwood*, Chief of the Rochester Ordnance District; the "NPM" indicates the stock was originally on a carbine made by National Postal Meter.

*The cartouche is often called an inspector's stamp. Of course, someone like Col. Atwood did not personally inspect every firearm and vehicle turned out in his district, but he was in overall charge of ordnance production in that area, and his initials mean the item met specifications and was accepted for service.

Jim

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[CapnMac]

Only thing I'd likely do is prowl the parts tables at the big gun shows and see if I could find a Type I or II (no bayonet lug) for a more 'period' look.
I would keep the NPM stock, unless I could find a high-wood early handguard Inland stock as nice.

Nest way to add more pictures is just to make another Reply. If you'd like to imbed the images, you merely need to open the attachments and cut-n-paste the url. Use the "Go Advanced" button, then the Insert Image icon. Vis:

 

[rcmodel]

I wouldn't change a thing.

With the prices they get now for old GI carbine parts?

You will soon find yourself 'upside down' on the value of it.

It is what it is, and can never be factory original again.

Just Choot'm it and enjoy it.

rc

 

[DonTremaine]

Thanks for your help. It has a perfect bore and shoots real good. I bought it about 15 years ago for $200.
About how much is it worth as is?
Would it be worth more with an Inland stock?
Is the bayonet lug make it worth less?
Don

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

In my opinion the bayonet lug makes it worth more. Don't screw with it, respect it for what it is and don't worry about worth. If you only want to sell it just put it on some gun auction site and let the market rule. If you really value history just keep it.

 

[DonTremaine]

I am very happy with my carbine, I jut like to know more about my guns. The carbine was the first center fire I ever shot. I was maybe 10 -12 years old. I really wanted an Inland arms copy because they make my favorite cars and trucks.
Thanks for all the help.
Don

 

[CapnMac]

Every carbine is unique; so are Carbine Owners.

Which may come from the wartime history of the carbines. The War and Navy Departments distributed them. After that, they would wind up in the hands of Regimental and Divisional armorers. Those worthies had nothing but bins of spares, and their goal was simple--make as may Carbines Serviceable as possible.

Some collectors refuse to acept this and use terms like "mix master" yet most in-service Carbines were just that. The Armorers had no reason to match parts. They just had to work.

The OP's Carbine is a wonderful thing and OP likes it that way. So, that is good enough.

 

[Jim K]

All carbines were in a sense mixmasters from day one, since NO maker produced all the parts - they all used subcontractors. The Army even had parts transferred from one maker to another to even out the supply.

And of course, those guns have by now been repaired and rebuilt, not just by American armorers and depots in wartime, but in a dozen countries since, often using parts manufactured locally.

Today, anyone who claims to have an all original carbine (all the parts made by or for the indicated prime contractor) had better have a good explanation as to where the gun has been. Otherwise, it would be an "assembled" carbine put together carefully to hike the price. (And even those can't be trusted; fakers have produced parts that are available with markings to order.)

As for the bayonet lug, most were put on by armorers under a Modification Work Order; only late carbines had them from the factory. If the carbine did not have one originally, it is more valuable without it than with it.

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

I have long said any WWII US military rifle or pistol that has all matching parts was stolen from the companies factory that made it before the first GI got his hands on it!

And him and his buddy took their rifles apart to clean them the first time!

rc

 

[Jim K]

I have heard that many times, usually about the Marines. All I can say is that I was a company armorer (Army) and no one on my watch did any parts swapping if I could help it, and I had the full backing of the first shirt and the CO on that. I kept a close eye on cleaning sessions and made it clear that there was to be no parts swapping and that any problems in dis- or re-assembly were to be brought to me.

In fact, I preferred to do routine cleaning myself, but it was "clean your own" when we came in from the field; I inspected each weapon as it was turned in.

Jim

 

[hso]

$800 - $950 for an Inland around here.

Trying to return an M1 Carbine to factory condition isn't a realistic goal in my opinion. There were just too many opportunities for them to have parts from other carbines in them over their military service.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The barrel band with bayonet lug was a standard arsenal upgrade. For most M1 carbines it stabilizes the barrel better and improves accuracy over the other two barrel band styles.

Personally I would feel the arsenal upgrades, foreign stamp, give that gun its own history and personality.

 

[Jim K]

IIRC, the bayonet lug was normally an armorer installation; of course when an MWO comes out, depot and arsenal personnel upgrade all the weapons in stock. But in most cases, upgrades won't wait until weapons can be sent back to a depot or are returned for repair. The work will be done either by a unit armorer or by a field maintenance unit, probably the former as the weapon will be out of service the shortest time.

Jim