question for bullseye pistol reloaders:

[Rule3]

As you have put the constraints of not wanting to change powder or bullets then you only options are to adjust the powder charge up or down a little. Doubtful that will make much difference. The range between start and max is very limited so there is not a great deal of change to be made.

I fully understand wanting to use what you have,but it wil only do what it's capable of.

Have you tested with some factory ammo?? If it is they same accuracy or lack of. then to me, it's the gun/barrel.

 

[243winxb]

Converting 1.6" average @ 7 yards to 25 yards equals about 6" groups. If I converted correctly ??

 

[sexybeast]

really? minor is only 125. I only have to be going 1025 fps to make that. I haven't chrono'd but i'd guess i'm well above 1100 fps. the loads are certainly supersonic.
__________________

Sorry Taliv, I chrono'd them last year during cold weather and they were 985 to 1010 fps. That was with 3.5gr of titegroup and lead bullets sized to .357 out of a 5" M&P pro.
You are using plated, don't think you will get much more than that but if you do then good for you. Don't get your hopes too high!
Shoot the reduced loads for accuracy, chrono them, and let us know how they do. Its something I'm interested in as I do a lot of this kind of testing myself.
Right now I'm doing some testing with 147gr lead bullets. higher pressures by the book but a softer, "push" like recoil.

 

[LiveLife]

OP gave us definite factors to work with which were 21,000 124 gr plated RN bullets and Titegroup powder. Since pistol/barrel are fixed variables for now, we can only change powder charge/OAL/taper crimp.

I already supplied a reference comparison of 2"-4" shot groups at 25 yards using Berry's 124 gr plated RN from G22/KKM/Lone Wolf barrels. Based on the shot groups I got, it is my opinion that 3.8/4.0 gr of Titegroup are accurate loads.

I think the questions to ask next (which I think the OP is already suspecting) is whether the barrel is the weak link and I suggested S&W customer service/technical support/Performance Center be contacted as OP may need a barrel swap.

Hilton Yam indicated in his website that S&W changed the barrel twist rate of M&P9 from 1:18 to 1:24 which resulted in a decreased shot group size from 8" to 2.5". I am not sure what OP's barrel twist rate is but S&W should be able to tell the barrel twist rate based on the serial number and change out the barrel to 1:24 twist rate - http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=159

Original Production Barrels with 1:18 twist: These barrels tend to shoot about 3” or better with 147gr ammunition. They do not shoot very well with 115gr and 124gr ammunition, and groups larger than 8” at 25 yards were common.

KKM Barrel: Despite the inexplicably slow twist, this drop in barrel is a performer in all bullet weights. I have only done limited accuracy testing with it so far (consisting of shooting 1 group for each bullet weight, standing off hand), but it shot 3” or better with each load, and 115gr Atlanta Arms match ammo shot around 2”. The improvement in accuracy has been apparent during regular training at 15 and 25 yards.

New Production Factory Barrel: As best as I can determine, this new style barrel started being phased in earlier this year. It removes the various stress risers ahead of the chamber area, tightens lockup, and brings in a new twist rate. I was not able to get an official answer from any of my points of contact at S&W, but visual comparison of all the barrels has determined that the new barrel has a slower twist rate than the original production units, and more closely resembles the 1:24 twist of the KKM. This new barrel fits almost as tightly as the KKM match barrel. It also delivers performance – it shot a 2.5” 10 shot group at 25 yards off a rest using Atlanta Arms 115gr match ammo. It shot a 3” group with 147gr ammo, also off a rest.

For those that claim 147 gr bullet are more accurate than 115 gr bullet in 9mm, perhaps we should check our barrel twist rates?

 

[taliv]

thanks again guys

i did get to shoot some federal factory loads 2 days ago. they shot a little better. borderline acceptable. (though i only shot about 20, compared to several thousand of these others, so it's not really what i'd call significant)


hmm... my only operational chrono is for rifles only so i will have to wait til i can borrow one to test the speed

 

[floydster]

After many, many years handloading 9mm I have yet to develop a load that will campare to my 45 ACP loads as far as being as accurate.
Any other caliber, ( and I load for 10 pistol cals.), doesn't give me the fits like the 9mm

 

[LiveLife]

I say Hogwash to those that say 9mm is not accurate. While the caliber may not be accurate as certain 45 with certain loads, IMO 9mm can be made accurate enough.

9mm. S&W M&P pro core.

At 4:30 minute mark of the video, Jerry Miculek has no problem knocking down small steel plates at 50 yards OFF HAND! (no rest/sand bags) -



I think the video demonstrates the accuracy potential of M&P C.O.R.E. and I certainly would expect it to group less than 4" at 25 yards. If the accuracy remains questionable with different "known accurate" loads, I would definitely contact S&W.

 

[caz223]

His gun is not a stock core, and has a very high dollar optic on it.
Oh, and he is Jerry Miculek. World record holder and all that.
Also, he typically shoots good bullets, knows what he likes, and he practices lots.

From what I've seen for bullseye accuracy these things are the most important.

1. The Shooter.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7. The gun. The projectile launcher, and the total of it's parts. Optics, trigger, action work, etc.
8. The bullets. The actual projectiles.
9. Everything else that translates to quality ammo. Powders, primers, etc.
Variables 2-6 are unknowns, like how much coffee did you have, did you eat, your state of mind, etc.
This is an example, there are a lot more than 4 unknown variables.

 

[caz223]

Also, I'm not dogging anybody's gear.
If it works, use it.
If it doesn't work -for you- then it doesn't work.
Change it up until it does.
So, here's what I recommend.
If you can get 2" groups at 50 yards with X setup, and you want it to work with a Y setup, start with X, change 1 variable at a time, confirm that it works for you, and change another variable. Rinse, lather, repeat, until you're shooting at 50 yards with Y. EZPZ. Another day at the office.
Don't start with Y, and try to make it work. Start with X. A known good.
It sounds like you're starting with Y, and trying to bang your head on it until it works.
It may work someday-maybe-but until then-it's going to be a headache.

I like 9mm for action shooting, but for accuracy, I've had better luck with lots of other calibers, like .45 acp, 357SIG, 10mm, .357 magnum, .41 magnum, ,44 magnum, .22 LR etc.
For accuracy, I'll take my .45 with hornady XTP and unique, you can shoot 9mm lead with titegroup, and tell me how good it is.

 

[LiveLife]

he typically shoots good bullets

Most of his shooting is done with lead bullets he casts himself. The bullets used for 50 yards off hand shots are 147 gr lead cast bullets - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSgQ82Kqhzo

Oh, and he is Jerry Miculek. World record holder and all that.

I posted the video not to showcase Jerry but to illustrate the accuracy potential of the OP's pistol. I think 8" shot group taliv got at 25 yards is not reflective of this pistol's accuracy potential and factory rounds were also fired with less than stellar results.

In the video, Jerry did mention that M&P C.O.R.E. barrel twist rate is 1:10 instead of 1:18 (11:10 minute mark of the video) for greater stability of bullets.

 

[LiveLife]

From what I've seen for bullseye accuracy these things are the most important.

OP already posted the inclusion of "bullseye" in he thread title may not have been proper. taliv is not trying to shoot bullseye matches with the M&P C.O.R.E. but trying to figure out why the pistol is not grouping well (8" at 25 yards instead of less than 4").

1. The Shooter ... 7. The gun. The projectile launcher, and the total of it's parts. Optics, trigger, action work, etc.
8. The bullets. The actual projectiles.
9. Everything else that translates to quality ammo. Powders, primers, etc.
Variables 2-6 are unknowns, like how much coffee did you have, did you eat, your state of mind, etc.

This is a bit off topic but the reason why I use Glock 22/23/27 platform to test 9mm and 40S&W jacketed/plated/lead loads is not because they are stellarly accurate match pistols but rather mediocre "average" service/combat pistols representative of pistols more likely used by THR members/guests. I use 40-9 conversion barrels because I sold off G17/G19/G26.

I was already planning a range trip for other threads to test some Herco/Win FMJ/Berry's 115 gr HBRN/lead loads in 9mm and offered to test 124 gr RN/Titegroup loads for taliv (Post #36) to provide some accuracy reference - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9382933#post9382933

For the range trip, the shooter was not adequately caffeinated (I only had one cup of coffee) or properly nourished (I skipped breakfast) and a bit hazy mental state yet managed to produce 2"-4" shot groups at 25 yards using factory stock plastic sights with 125 gr plated RN and 3.8/4.0 Titegroup powder charge loaded on (wait for it) Lee Pro 1000 "POS" reloader. Mixed range brass that have been reloaded several times were intentionally used to duplicate more "realistic" reloading/testing conditions. Despite all these reloading/testing factors, I would deem 3.8/4.0 gr Titegroup loads taliv was shooting accurate enough to produce sub 4" shot groups from M&P C.O.R.E. which I think is the objective of this thread.

 

[caz223]

I'm not attacking anyone.
Since pistol shooting is basic, if the end result is not a desired one, one of the basic necessities is not being fully met.
I have been at the range many times where the guy next to me can't hit the target, blames it on the gun, and I offer to shoot it.
When it shoots well for me, I usually hand it back to him, and say, 'I dunno'.
What I'm really saying is see rule 1, it's the shooter, not the gun. People blaming the gear for not doing well at the range, is like blaming your pen for poor penmanship.

That being said, I've owned guns that shoot well for other people, and don't do well for me. They are traded off. It may/may not be the gun's fault. You can usually tell in a couple of range sessions if the gun is going to do well for you, or not.

Then there are guns that just don't do well with the ammo I have.
Is it the gun's fault? The ammo's fault? Who knows. I don't deal well with picky guns, I try a few different things, then move on.

Then there is a gun that is just broken. A lemon. Fix, or trade.
Time spent trying to shoot a broken gun is wasted time.

Do I know which of these things it is over the internet? No.
Do you? Be careful with what you say here, unless you have physical access to the exact gun in question, not just another of the same make/model.
Unless you do, it's speculation.
Have a nice day.

 

[IMtheNRA]

Are these 124-grain bullets advertised as "seconds"?

 

[Rule3]

I wonder, does anyone think Jerrys gun is stock right out of the box?? I didn't watch the video. Jerry can shoot a 2x4 and it would be accurate!

 

[LiveLife]

I think Jerry Miculek is a ransom machine rest with feet.

I bet he has a firm handshake.

Are these 124-grain bullets advertised as "seconds"?

Yes, but I think they are "cosmetic" blems that won't affect functional accuracy. Perhaps Jake from RMR could verify that for us.

 

[Rule3]

I think Jerry Miculek is a ransom machine rest with feet.

I bet he has a firm handshake.


Yes, but I think they are "cosmetic" blems that won't affect functional accuracy. Perhaps Jake from RMR could verify that for us.

He is indeed very big Boy! His hands are giant Vice Grips!

 

[243winxb]

9MM Accuracy

Accuracy of 12 different 9MM handguns as tested by the American Rifleman Magazine. http://s338.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/library/FirearmsReloading102/9MM%20Accuracy The article on each can be found here. http://www.americanrifleman.org/Handguns-Semi-Auto At the online American Rifleman Magazine.