Question of Colt's survival

[CapnMac]

Ok, for qualifications, learned pistol on a 1911A1; owned a Python, a Trooper Mk V, and a Detective Special, along with an LE6922; I also have a .380 Government Model (not a Mustang), owned a 1903, and grew up around a 1905-made SAA--I might be familiar with dancing ponies.

Reviving the Python is a little loike reviving the Duesenberg--really limited sales market, and needing a huge number of artisans and craftspeople to create, particularly the sub-contractors. Python used a V-spring for its mainspring. Colt used to reject those is batches from its subs, as the tolerances were very specific. You could tell a "dud" Python practically from touch (I have a miscreant cousin who bubba'ed a Python into junk).

The wheelgun market is full of product; a person could argue, I think, that the buying public is "used to" lowest common deominator in that market. Which makes it very complicated to introduce products in the "middle" as it were.

What Colt really needs to do is break its Connecticut "stranglehold." If they could set up factory facilities in Kentucky, Indiana, or even out west toward Montana or Wyoming, they could get both "made in USA" cachet, but also skilled labor at good prices (and lower facility tax rates, too). This is going to be the only way for them to break the wholesale cost stranglehold they are in right now. Saw just yesterday at the Fort Worth Gun Show an LE6922 which was in a garish Tiger Stripe. Kind of a cool look, but a PASS at $1500 (same table had equal m4gerys which would have been half that price, with tax).

They need to break out of the All-American 2000 "slump" too--this flop really hit the design side hard. They had a bood design, but only if it was built in the Custom Shop, that just could not be mass-produced.

 

[fjblair]

I have been a member of this forum for the past 7 years. There are multiple threads here, posted over those seven years, that go something like, "Colt will go under if they don't reintroduce the Python."

First, they've declared bankruptcy before, and it'll happen again. Such is the corporate world. Life goes on.

Second, Colt chose to focus on 1911s, because they can move every one they can make.

So true. I'm a guitar guy and the forums have forever been certain of Gibson's demise. No new models, no innovation, expensive, Les Paul is an old design, blah blah blah.

 

[WestKentucky]

I like Colt existing but I don’t understand it. They survived for a long time on the 1911 and “black gun” sales. They did very little to position themselves as players in any other markets and apparently just hoped that they never lost their .mil contracts. Like Harley, Sears, Kmart etc, let them go naturally.

 

[Browning]

Ain't that the truth. Well, I only have three, but still...that's three too many.

See what I mean.

For younger people they're worried about getting their education, getting a decent job, and then either going out with their friends or starting a family. The drive to buy new guns is there, just not the resources.

So it's actually the people who buy dozens of guns who drive the market. Not the younger crowd getting their first gun as an adult. They're important too, just for a different reason.

 

[Speedo66]

Well, even new Harleys are made offshore. Their new "Street" models are made in India, then assembled here. According to our wonderful consumer protection laws, that's enough for them to say Made in USA. Wonder who these laws are supposed to protect, because it's certainly not the consumer.

Guess Colt could do the same.

 

[TTv2]

Younger guys don't generally have the same kind of money though. Some old guys have the last 10 guns they bought new in box and they're still unfired.

This is exactly the problem. The 20s, 30s, 40s crowd have these things called kids and sometimes wives that they have to support with rent and food with their $14/hour jobs.

Let's also not forget that the urban Millennial generation who aren't prohibited persons aren't exactly the most gun friendly types. To the young generations, their cell phones and 4g/5g/WiFi is more important than self defense. Hell, some of them would rather die than live without the internet.

 

[TTv2]

Gun manufacturers can't make and sell guns (that aren't some sort of AR) that cost $2000. A company like Magnum Research that, imo, does make good guns that cost a grand or more get by because the Desert Eagle is that iconic and because Americans like big handguns.

What gun people like more is low prices and innovative products. Colt doesn't make anything low priced and innovation to them means a 1911 they can pull of the shelves with a special commemorative anniversary cerakote. I don't see Colt competing with Ruger when it comes to new products to the market at affordable prices.

IMO, if Colt wants to survive long term, they should get into producing more percussion revolvers because there's demand in Europe and many other places worldwide for them due to stricter gun laws. If Colt produces them in large enough quantities to meet demand and can keep the prices for them around $450, there's gonna be a market to profit off of.

Personally, the only guns that Colt has made that I would like to be an owner of and spend my money on is turn of the 20th Century type guns like the 1892 Army .38 Colt revolver, the New Service in .45 Colt, the Police Positive in .32 S&W Long, and the 1903 Pocket.

Those are all used guns that are almost 100 years old or older. Colt is gonna die, but that's the way of all flesh and steel.

 

[4v50 Gary]

With respects to what Waveski said, he is correct. The craftsmen who could assemble and time a Colt Python type action are fading or gone. Colt would have to send some workers to TSJC or Cylinder and Slide to learn how to work on the Python action. At the former, that means the Dean will have to leave his desk and return to the classroom for the class (I don't know if he has the time). For the latter, Bill Lauridge is retiring but two of his employees are thoroughly familiar with the Python. Webley of UK can probably teach it too as their MK VI revolver is very similar to the Python.

Now the Anaconda or Trooper MK III/IV or whatever action works very much like a S&W and is easier to fix.

 

[George P]

Well, even new Harleys are made offshore. Their new "Street" models are made in India, then assembled here. According to our wonderful consumer protection laws, that's enough for them to say Made in USA. Wonder who these laws are supposed to protect, because it's certainly not the consumer.

Guess Colt could do the same.

The Brits have been doing that with their guns for a long time. Their philosophy is that whomever puts the last file stroke on it gets to claim it as theirs......

No different than US car makers...........

 

[Browning]

This is exactly the problem. The 20s, 30s, 40s crowd have these things called kids and sometimes wives that they have to support with rent and food with their $14/hour jobs.

Yes, I know. I'm one of them pretty much right down the line on you list (except I make a bit more and at the end of the spectrum...I'm 45).

I still have guns...still go shooting...still attend classes. I'm just not throwing my money away at strip clubs and going out bar hopping.

Let's also not forget that the urban Millennial generation who aren't prohibited persons aren't exactly the most gun friendly types. To the young generations, their cell phones and 4g/5g/WiFi is more important than self defense. Hell, some of them would rather die than live without the internet.

If you don't like it then get involved in some millennial's life and get them involved in the shooting sports. That's what I've tried to do. Helped out all 3 nephews and a niece and helped them get started. Same thing with four younger guys from work.

I get what you're saying and to a certain extent I agree with you, but they aren't all like that. The thing is that socialist gun grabbers are big on activism and only now is the freedom crowd starting to play catchup.

The large number of vets from Iraq and Afghanistan helped up out and believe it or not so did video games and airsoft. Young guys wanted the same sort of rifle and pistol that they carried in the service and the gamers wanted the same guns in their video games and from airsoft.

So if Colt pulls their head out then they actually have a good shot here. Just start actually coming up with some new products Colt.

 

[Steve S.]

I own one Colt product (a Series 70 .45); I purchased it for nostalgic reasons (carried one the last three years of the Vietnam Era). I am one of those old guys that has all the guns he wants and does not plan to buy anymore (subject to change of course). I would probably not help the Colt cause going forward.

 

[bannockburn]

Have my fair share of Colts, some older and some newer. I believe I have done my part to help keep them financially solvent. I would hope that they can turn things around and stay in business but if not then it's been a good run and I have enjoyed the Colt's that I have had and still have in my collection.

 

[Ru4real]

If you own a classic Colt, you already know the answer.

Colt cannot make those guns any more because the craftspeople are gone. And they have no desire to make the best guns, so they will never have craftspeople again. Colt today is only a name.

 

[Old Dog]

Colt in its current incarnation may not survive, but the Colt's brand will. The company still sells every 1911 it produces and maintains a large share of the U.S. law enforcement AR (M-4 specifically) market.

 

[John Joseph]

Colt has been on a financial roller coaster since they lost the Patterson factory.

I miss excellent old school DA revolvers in general, especially the Smith and Wessons.

What has Colt done recently to court the civilian market?
The new Cobra. A crude looking copy of the old 1960's Cobra.

I think Colt's survival depends on acquiring government contracts.
What does Colt manufacture that the Feds and law enforcement agencies need? the sound of crickets

 

[bassjam]

Younger guy here weighing in (35). I like the comparison to Harley Davidson. Harley sells a "lifestyle", and I see past that. I can get a better value by buying a Honda, Yamaha, or Suzuki, and it will probably last longer to boot. HD's last technological "breakthrough" was rubber engine mounts. They thought that bringing out a water cooled engine was a big deal. To them,murdering out current models counts as innovation. All I see is 60 year old technology with quality that's been on a roller coaster over the decades.

Colt is exactly the same in my eyes. I do have a Anaconda I inherited. It probably has 150 rounds through it and maybe 1,000 dry fires and it's already out of time. My S&W and Ruger revolvers have 10-20 times that round count and they are still as solid as the day they left the factory. Colt hasn't convinced me that paying the premium for their name is a smart move. The Cobra caught my eye, but I'd rather just have a 5 shot aluminum framed j-frame for half the cost, or just pay more for a Kimber with 6 shots and is .357 capable. The Cobra answered a question no-one as asking. Colt seems to think I should buy one of their 1911's or an AR because it has a pony stamped on it, but they haven't done a good job of convincing me why I should past the nostalgia of their name.

 

[hot chili powder]

Had 1 Colt, stainless 357 mag Cobra, sold it, wish I had not......but if a company like Ruger can thrive and make great guns and sell at reasonable prices why can't Colt???

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I found this in the comments on a Cobra review.
"Ah Colt....like the fading actress who, after years of trying all sorts of new roles, senses the end of her career and runs back to the roles that originally made her famous....only to find she's lost the magic."
Colt has not been the same company for years. Most often when we do a background trace on a Colt, it comes back as company no longer in business. But the new Colt company will let you buy a gun with the pony if you pay for the ride.
Now I'm no Colt Fan Boy or hater. In fact I like Colts. I wish they would come up with something new and affordable. But all they have done is reintroducing guns that faded from the market and at a price point that just about any other competitor can beat. I would hate to see Colt fade into history like so many gun companies have.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I doubt Colt has many tool makers left and farming out tooling creates it's own set of problems. Probably also doesn't have the skill sets left in the polishing and assembly departments it would take to reproduce something like the Python at less than custom shop pricing.

This is no doubt why they farmed out production of the M1903 to US Armament. Can you imagine if they put these in general release as a .380 for $400-ish? There would be a feeding frenzy at the LGS....

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Colt introduced the new cobra last year. Other than that the catalog has seen few changes in the last couple of years. They've got more variations of the 1911 than you can shake a stick at, the Mustang (which nobody seems to care about), and the elusive SAA. And then you've got the long gun page with a couple AR-15's. I'm pretty sure Ruger comes out with more new models every year than the number of models in the Colt catalog.

One of the pawnshops I frequent here sells the snot out of the new Mustangs. IIRC, they've got the poly framed guns for $395 and stainless for $449. Not sure how they are doing elsewhere, but the folks at that shop say they can't get em fast enough!

 

[boom boom]

One of the pawnshops I frequent here sells the snot out of the new Mustangs. IIRC, they've got the poly framed guns for $395 and stainless for $449. Not sure how they are doing elsewhere, but the folks at that shop say they can't get em fast enough!

Part of their problem is that when Colt was busy making M4's, Sig came out with their copy of the Mustang, the P238. Now Colt has to split the market. My mom ended up getting the Sig at Academy and it fires quite nicely. She loves it. Same thing in the 1911 market. Rock Island and other Philippine Islands makers are dominating the low end, Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Nighthawk, Bauer, etc. dominate the top end. Leaving Colt to the middle of the market slugging it out with Ruger, S&W, Remington, etc. Tough to make much of a margin when you have to share the market. Almost every firearm that Colt is currently selling, they are competing with some other well financed and profitable outfit.

The only demarcation is the Colt name but like Colt found out when competing with S&W in revolvers in the 50's and 60's, people might pay a bit more for the Colt name, but not a whole lot more as long as the other firearms were competitive. S&W updated their revolvers and offered newer stuff before Colt did including new model semi-autos while Colt stuck to 1911's. Even the SAA market was originally restarted by Great Western and then Ruger picked up their game.

Read the book, Bill Ruger And His Guns, and in it, Ruger commented that the folks running Colt in the 50's and 60's were not "gun guys" but instead generic businessmen that preferred to play golf instead of firearms.

 

[Zendude]

Had 1 Colt, stainless 357 mag Cobra, sold it, wish I had not......but if a company like Ruger can thrive and make great guns and sell at reasonable prices why can't Colt???

Good question. Although Ruger is publicly traded on the stock exchange, Ruger is owned and run by, well, Ruger.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Colt needs to hire men that shoot guns to run their company.
They need to stop digging up bones in the graveyard and start offering new products.
Their ARs, for just a plain Jane you are going to pay two to four hundred more then what you will pay for others.
Their last innovative AR with a mid length gas system and fifteen inch rail was more then two years late to the market and priced outside of reasonable.
Look at Springfield Armory, they were late to the game with their AR, The Saint. But it wasn’t plain Jane and priced better the Colt.
Springfield is now offering the Saint AR15 Pistol. If Colt keeps true to the path they have been on, maybe they will offer a AR15 pistols in five to ten years.

 

[CapnMac]

but if a company like Ruger can thrive and make great guns and sell at reasonable prices why can't Colt???

Ruger is not mired deep into Connecticut.

 

[helitack32f1]

I was really surprised by the introduction of the new Cobra, I had pretty much assumed they were never gonna introduce anything besides variations on two themes: AR's and 1911's. There have been occasional signs of life like realizing they had to come out with some reasonably priced 1911's and AR's to at least try to compete but I never expected them to actually come out with a revolver again. Maybe in a year or two they will come out with another length of barrel or a new set of sights for it. Hopefully though, they will pull off some sort of surprise.

I guess what bothers me most about the situation is the fact that you have relative unknowns like Detonics and Kriss in the MHS submissions but no Colt. I think they missed a huge opportunity there. Had they managed to gamble on something and actually managed to win the contract, they would be rolling in the dough. Of course, they would misuse that dough and fail anyway. But, had the gambled and lost, they would probably go under for good or maybe be saved by the fact that they could sell the gun on the civilian market.

Oh well. Just dreaming.