Questionable performance with Hornaday ammo

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Lawdawg45

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While driving out in the country last night we happened upon a very large Doe that had been hit by a vehicle. It had 2 broken legs and was flailing around in the middle of of the road creating a real road hazard, so I made the decision to put it down. I had my 1911 with me loaded with Hornaday Critical Defense ammo, but my first shot to the head (at about 4 feet) seemed to either deflect and/or not penetrate the skull. It continued to try and get up, so I tried a second shot in the heart at about the same distance, but the thing was still trying to get up. It was only after a 3rd shot in the heart area that it finally fell over and died. This really surprised me since I routinely hunt with a .45 Colt and have usually dropped them in their tracks with one shot. I realize this is far from a scientific evaluation, but do you think last night was a fluke, or do I need to carry different ammo? Your thoughts are appreciated.

LD
 
Hello Sir!,

I was wondering if you could clarify any differences between your carry ammo and your hunting ammo. Mine are worlds apart (Hollow points, etc.). Oh, never mind, I see it. I assume those are hollowpoints, then?
 
AFDavis11 said:
Hello Sir!,

I was wondering if you could clarify any differences between your carry ammo and your hunting ammo. Mine are worlds apart (Hollow points, etc.). Oh, never mind, I see it. I assume those are hollowpoints, then?
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Sure. I always use the Hornady Leverevolution in .45 colt, fired from a Henry rifle. The two are almost identical projectiles, both at about 950 fps.

LD
 
There are no magic bullets.

This is why we train to keep shooting till the threat has been nullified.
And this is also why high capacity handguns are so popular.



Of course the doe could have been high on angel dust. :D
 
I'm certain that I read where that Hornady ammo performed poorly in the FBI protocol tests, so the opted for the Winchester Elite ammo as their duty ammo. I never gave that Hornady ammo a second thought thereafter.
 
CoRoMo said:
I'm certain that I read where that Hornady ammo performed poorly in the FBI protocol tests, so the opted for the Winchester Elite ammo as their duty ammo. I never gave that Hornady ammo a second thought thereafter.
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Intersting. I initially chose that ammo due to it's smooth design, it resembles a FMJ with no snags like the jagged HP's of Speer and Winchester. I also wondered about a 180 grain bullet in a weapon designed to fire a 230 grain?

LD
 
As we say all the time on this board SHOT-PLACEMENT is everything!

You could shoot a howitzer at the doe, however if you barely hit her, she will still be alive and in pain.

I believe it is very possible the shot to her head was probably at such an angle that the bullet ricocheted off her skull, unfortunately, for her.
 
I also wondered about a 180 grain bullet in a weapon designed to fire a 230 grain?
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I know, they don't offer a 124 in 9mm and their .38 bullets are little 110s! What the heck?!!? I would also prefer a more appropriate bullet weight that reflects the caliber's initial design.

I think Hornady focused on two vital things; smooth/flawless feeding and consistent/reliable expansion. They nailed those aspects but failed to give the rounds enough power and energy to perform well. I'm half way speaking off the cuff here so I'll have to go dig around for that article and see if I can cite it properly.

ETA:
Here's the article: http://www.americanrifleman.org/Webcontent/pdf/2009-8/200981911031-oneproblemtwosolutions.pdf
Hornady actually explains there why they chose smaller bullets and what their primary focus was. Penetration depth was something they specifically wanted to limit. They were not vying for an FBI contract.
 
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Maybe it was the 1911, your Single Action would have dropped the threat! :)

Could it have been a glancing blow, the first non-head shot? It might have also been some psychological/physiological effect too, I suppose.

Unfortunately a lot of speculation, and even a change in your carry load, won't resolve the issue completely.

I've always been a little suspicious of hollowpoints in low velocity rounds, but I'm hardly qualified to comment.
 
AFDavis11 said:
Maybe it was the 1911, your Single Action would have dropped the threat! :)

Could it have been a glancing blow, the first non-head shot? It might have also been some psychological/physiological effect too, I suppose.

Unfortunately a lot of speculation, and even a change in your carry load, won't resolve the issue completely.

I've always been a little suspicious of hollowpoints in low velocity rounds, but I'm hardly qualified to comment.
Click to expand...

My actual inner thoughts......As I exited my vehicle....."glad I have my 1911". Post shooting....."Wish I'd had my Vaquero". I either use the Corbon DPX or the Buffalo Bore JHP in my Sheriff's model.

LD
 
185gr is a light for caliber .45 auto load. Add to that the hollow point being just about the worst design for penetration of a hard object, and im not entirely surprised.

Try a bonded LE style HP like Winchester PDX1/Ranger 230gr in .45. They have a reverse taper jacket and the front of the bullet is designed to defeat hard objects like auto glass while still expanding in tissue.
 
If the animal was flailing around then I'm guessing the bullet glanced off the scull. This doesn't seem like that big of mystery. It probably felt like getting hit in the head with a hammer.

If the animal was in that much pain, and then you are standing there, trying to shoot it in the head, then that animal had a hell of a lot of adrenaline dumped in it's system from fear, panic, and pain. With that much in it's system, even a shot in the heart is going to keep it moving for a few seconds. My guess is that it would have bled out real quick after that shot to the chest if left alone.

A friend of mine grew up next to a farm. He was hanging out there one day and the owner brought a cow in to butcher. He put the cow in a stawl, chambered a round in his 1911 and shot the cow in the forehead. The cow let out a cry, and started kicking. Once it calmed down, he put one in it's forehead two inches lower. The cows legs folded up and it dropped dead right there.

Animal sculls are structured different than a human's. Odd angles, smaller lethal kill zone, smaller brain pan.

Place your shot 'behind the ear'...
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Good advice, but if the animal is flailing this may be hard.

I say put 4 or 5 rounds in the heart area in this situation if using a bullet designed to limit penetration. It'll bleed out fast. Is it the most humane thing? No, a head shot is definately better. But it's a heck of a lot more humane than letting the thing flop around in lasting pain.
 
Hornady Critical Defense isn't made for penetration, it's made for urban self-defense where ypu're concerned about over-penetration. Hornady's new Critical Duty should be your choice if you want that penetration as it was made to pass the FBI penetration requirements.
 
You probably shot the deer in the head front forward,which tends not to be an instant kill with a pistol round....It's better to put the animal down with a "behind the ear" shot where the bullet passes through both hemispheres.
 
The animal was injured and full of adrenaline. That means all of its veins/arteries are constricted and all blood is being shunted to the heart and nervous system. A simple shot to the heart/lungs isn't going to make it drop dead right there. It still takes some time for the 02 to in the system to deplete.

The head shot? Only a close look would tell you what went wrong.

This is a common scenario with bear hunting. If you hit a big brownie well on the first shot, he drops right there. Make a poor shot and now you're dealing with a frightened/angry adrenalized bear and it may take a half dozen or more heart/lung shots to put him down for good.
 
I shot a buck with a 196gr 8mm this year that ran 200 yards before it decided to fold up and die. As I was walking up on it I was seriously considering giving my trusty 'ol Mauser some rack time, as it clearly wasn't up to the job anymore... even though it has for years dropped 'em where they were hit. As I was loading him up in our mule, I noticed that the exit wound wasn't so much a bullet exit wound as it was a post hole digger wound. When we hung him up and unzipped him, everything in front of the diaphragm spilled out in a soupy mess. Hmm, guess that 8mm did it's job just fine after all.

Now, if that buck ran 200 yards without a heart or lungs to speak of, don't be expecting your .45 to make it up and quit right away either.
 
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Interesting. I never thought about that. Seems like you did pretty well all around.

Keep the Single Action in the car for next time and let's make some comparisons later. :)
 
AFDavis11 said:
Interesting. I never thought about that. Seems like you did pretty well all around.

Keep the Single Action in the car for next time and let's make some comparisons later. :)
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I was thinking more along the lines of an 870 with 3 inch magnum slugs. My POV has a secure storage area in the back of the vehicle, perfect for an AR or shotgun.;)

LD
 
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