Questionable procedures by police last night

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Hawkeye.....

That attitude will get a CHL yanked quick in Texas. Try to prevent an officer from disarming you and it will get hairy. You may feel that you have a right to keep your gun against the officer's wishes, but the law, the legislature and all of the courts disagree with you.
Congratulations. You just restated the point I made above in different words, and called it a disagreement.
I suggest you read up on some criminal and police procedure and refrain from giving terrible, potentially lethal and illegal advice again.
Leaving aside for now the question of the supposed illegality of my statement, please show me where I offered advice. In fact I offered none.
That sovereign citizen crap only goes so far in real life.
You will discover that some of us here at The High Road still hold to the belief that the founding principles of our nation are something more than "crap."
And by the way, the 4th Amendment is still very much alive and well. How many other countries do you see where the police have to jump through so many hoops to conduct business according to the law?
That's just the point. They are circumventing, not conducting business in accordance with, the law, and doing so with the aid of an out of control Supreme Court.
 
Alduro, a couple of questions, a scanner is a legal item, even in plain sight what gave the officer PC to reach in the vehicle and in fact "seize" it? Remember the call was for a DWI(?) not a LEO imposter. Policy and proceedure aside, can you quote the Texas Statute that allows you to disarm a CHL while you interview him?
 
Cane...as for the scanner....couldn't tell ya.....wasn't there.

As for the Penal code:

GC §411.207.

AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM.

A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license hold er, officer, or another individual. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license holder from the scene if the officer determines that the license holder is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license holder.

GC §411.208.

But I'm not a Texas Peace Officer, so if you have more questions...

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/newlaw.htm

Now if anyone has "specific" criminal procedure question fire away. I'm not going to respond to baiting though.;)
 
Question for LEOs

You are one of the officers involved in this stop. When you come to work the next day, you supe tells you to call your REP. as you are being brought up on charges, both criminal and civil for civil rights violation by the CHL. He is alleging you had no probable cause to search his vehicle nor his consent. Any idea how how the rep would defend you? Just curious. Personally I would definitely be looking for representation after the incident was over.
 
Try it.

I would love to see some of you on this board attempt to be a cop and last any amount of time or be remotely successful at it. You would fail miserably and/or come to the conclusion your previous idea's where complete garbage.
 
Alduro, thank you for your response and reference. I thought from your posts and public profile that you were in fact a Texas LEO. My error.
 
I don't see much of a problem here. You got into a verbal argument with the driver (who started it or how heated I don't know but hey it happens). He then calls dispatcher to call the cops saying you are intoxicated? :scrutiny: Thats the main thing in the story which is off and I would file a complaint agianst him. Arguments happen and going by what you say he had blocked access, which makes it sounds like he was in the wrong and depending on some places actually illegal depending just what part he blocked. So his conduct was uncalled for, he can't go calling dispatchers to call police with baseless reports that the other party is driving while intoxicated.

But anyway to the police-

They acted fine, three units might be a bit over the top but don't think there is anything wrong there other then that. You informed him and he responded in a professional manner twoards it. Had you put your hands on the wheel (reasonable) reviewed your info, didn't get jumpy when the other officer had you unlock the door, and then just had you come out and disarmed you so he didn't have to worry for the rest of the encounter if an armed drunk was going to shoot him. His questions didn't seem unreasonable. He had been called to a verbaly abusive drunk, it is his job to investigate and it sounds like he handled it professionaly. He didn't grill you but he did his job on the call and asked questions. And then once it was determined you weren't drunk, that it was a simple argument, and you weren't up to no good he let you go on your way with your carry weapon. Putting it in the glove box might have been a little overkill since it had been dertermined nothing was amiss, but even with it being on the side of overkill I wouldn't call it questionable. As to searching I didn't see anything in there where they searched your vehicle. If they had that would have been questionable but the closest it seems they came was opening your glove box, and though overkill that isn't a search or questionable.

All in all you weren't harrased through any fault of the police, didn't get an attitude from them even though you had a ccw, and you all handled it professionaly. Good day for all in the end.
 
________________________________________
I would love to see some of you on this board attempt to be a cop and last any amount of time
You're right; I would get fired within a week of being hired.

Why?

I believe every human is a sovereign being, and believe every human was brought into this world possessing certain inalienable rights. I also believe the powers of a peace officer are derived from the people.

This philosophy will get me fired within a week. Sadly, the only way to survive as an LEO is to cultivate an us-against-them mentality. :(
 
What the heck, I’ll honor my word Makarova

Let’s break your question down real quick:

Quote--“You are one of the officers involved in this stop. When you come to work the next day, you supe tells you to call your REP. as you are being brought up on charges, both criminal and civil for civil rights violation by the CHL.”

Well, I cannot speak for this situation as it is vague. If you have a specific charge in mind let’s talk about it. Additionally, the CHL holder would have to file a criminal complaint, the IA department would have to find and justify probable cause. During the interim investigation an officer is likely to be placed on paid leave pending results. Of positive finding the District Attorney would have to be willing to prosecute and bring the case before a grand jury, if “billed” by the grand jury the case and the officer in question would of course go to trial. This is how the system works. It is a serious matter, not handled lightly at any level and the facts of the case would have to carry the same burden of proof that any other criminal case would have to carry. He said she said isn’t enough to establish probable cause. The next thing you would have to find out is if this was a State or Federal prosecution, as a civil rights violation covers 2 jurisdictions. Each has its method of handling formal criminal proceedings though the processes for both are similar.

Upon notice of a civil case the matter is different as the beyond a shadow of a doubt in proof would be reduced to preponderance of evidence, meaning more than 51%. This is typically a jury trial and will generally await the outcome of a criminal trial.

As for coming in to work “the next day” to hear criminal charges and civil, usually the wheels turn slower than that so I would be a tad bit shocked.

Quote—“He is alleging you had no probable cause to search his vehicle nor his consent.”

In this case the police reports, 911 call by the bus driver and all the other documentary evidence would be called into question (dash cam?). The defense will produce witnesses; the prosecution will produce witnesses, you know how it goes. Basically what I explained above only this allegation would have to be proved in criminal court, then proved again in civil court. Only the burden of proof will change.

Quote—“Any idea how how the rep would defend you?”

There are all sorts of legal defense tactics. I am not a lawyer so I won’t speculate too much suffice to say the Departmental SOP and Code of Conduct will be reviewed. All documentary evidence will be combed over, all witness statements gathered, specific information from the prosecution will be “discovered” and I assume the defense counsel will try to poke holes in the accusation.

Quote—“Just curious. Personally I would definitely be looking for representation after the incident was over.”

Looking for representation as a victim or as the cop? In the case of the victim, your representation for criminal charges would be the district attorney who prosecutes the case. Your civil prosecution would be a lawyer you provide. ($$$) Not all lawsuits are winners, but that doesn’t usually excuse the legal bill. Then there is the worry of counter suit, etc. It gets ugly, takes years at times and is immensely expensive, at least to me.

The officer will likely have union or departmental representation unless convicted, and things progress onto the civil suit, but at that point, if convicted he will still likely have appointed attorneys, don’t all convicts?

The answer is vague because the question is vague. But since I believe you were sincere in your question I have taken the time to answer.
 
Quote from Molon Labe:
"You're right; I would get fired within a week of being hired.

Why?

I believe every human is a sovereign being, and believe every human was brought into this world possessing certain inalienable rights. I also believe the powers of a peace officer are derived from the people.

This philosophy will get me fired within a week. Sadly, the only way to survive as an LEO is to cultivate an us-against-them mentality".

That is an outright lie.
I to believe every human is a sovereign and free person. I know that my powers are granted to me by the people I serve. I have survived and thrived as a highly respected and regarded officer with an outstanding arrest rate. I have never once violated any persons rights or the consitution of the United States, I take great pride in this as does every officer I work directly with. I also know that the people that grant me my powers expect and deserve me to use every lawful means to protect them and prevent / solve crimes, therefore that is what I do.
As far as Us Vs. Them I will again say that is a two way street, and any officer with thiner skin reading this forum might really get the feeling its us vs. them.
Just food for thought.
 
I don't know how much different laws are where you are, but in California, if a PO has the right to do a cursory search of your person for a weapon, they can also do a cursory check of the interior of your vehicle...including your glovebox.

Probable cause was supplied by the fact there was a complaint, The PO's have the right to disarm you for officer safety reasons, while they check to see if there are any wants or warrents on you, as well as checking your permit and the status of your weapon.

I know you didn't complain about it, but come on, the only thing incriminating not found in your car was a ski mask. If you were a cop, a guy sitting in a car with a weapon and a scanner would make anyones butt pucker.

It sounds to me these cops acted professionally and treated you in a dignified manner.
 
Police scanners are very popular in rural areas. I would say a very large majorty of people have them in their homes. Not so many in their cars. Think about it. In a small town --rural area you are probably going to know the person the police are checking out. It is one reason why eveyone knows when you have done something wrong. And your parents will know it by the time you are home. :eek:
 
Shield529....+1

Also...Molon Labe..... when I was first sworn in, I went through a culture shock. There is some of that "us and them" mentality, but not in the context that you are necassarily refering to. This usually comes from years of cops letting people get to them and the rule is not universal. My former Corporal and friend would warn the new guys to unwind a little bit before they started sucking on the end of their pistol. This was his dark humor, but it had truth to it. Some cops really feel isolated from society and when they aren't a cop anymore, they find that they cannot relate to anyone.

Police work is a brotherhood, it can't be explained by those not in the profession other than maybe to say if you were ever in the military and you had "your" squad. But I've never been in the military so that is speculation on my part, I'm just trying to make it make sense to you.

After a while you learn that it is a job, a calling yes, but also a job and one day it will end. If you take it too seriously it will eat you alive, if you don't take it serious enough, you will fail in the profession. There is a balance.

I know I'm probably spinning my wheels here, but I'm trying to provide a glimpse for you guys.
 
I would love to see some of you on this board attempt to be a cop and last any amount of time or be remotely successful at it. You would fail miserably and/or come to the conclusion your previous idea's where complete garbage.

Try wearing the opposite shoe. Don't worry, we won't snicker if a former LEO fails at being a mere civilian. ;)
 
NineseveN......I know you meant that as a jab, but you are more right than you know. There is a change in a person that wears a badge. Sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. Some become cops and can't quit fast enough. Others allow it to consume them and become useless at anything else. Most become well rounded folks with knowledge far beyond their years.

It's like everything the Bible says about spiritual warfare in physical manifestation, eventually you start to recognize universal truths. But as for most cops I know, superior folks on and off duty. Being a cop is one of the only professions where you are judge for your actions off duty as much as you are on duty. Screw up, even privately and you will be on the 6 O'Clock news. Most "mere civilians" don't have that much invasive criticism in their lives. Personally I think most cops would welcome the autonomy.
 
A writer once said, "You can never go back home again." Once you see the worst of humanity, and how people will lie, even if the truth will set them free (literally), it's hard to ever feel the same way as when you were a civilian.
 
ALOHA. I believe that once you are outside the vehicle, the pat down for weapons would not include the interior of the car, since it wouldn't be within "lunging distance". Of course LEO's in/from California tend to have their own views, remember the brave CHP officer who body slammed the old lady in NO and stole her pistol.
 
A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license hold er, officer, or another individual. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license holder from the scene if the officer determines that the license holder is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license holder.
Very interesting. So, it requires a reasonable belief that his safety is in jeopardy. You, of course, realize that this is an objective and not a subjective standard under the law. Any time a law sets reasonableness as the standard, subjective judgment becomes irrelevant. Since no reasonable person would assume that his life is placed in jeapardy merely by being in the company of a peacable citizen who is carrying in full compliance with the law (that would be grounds, at least, for a psychiatric examination, and possible loss of job due to paranoia), the disarmament in question, according to the law you quoted, was not only a violation of a civil right, but of the law too.

P.S. Anyone is within his rights to disarm someone if he reasonably believes that the person in question poses a threat with his weapon. The emphasis is on the word reasonable, however, which denotes an objective standard in the law.
 
Alduro:

You're partially right. I did mean it as a jab towards those that do have that particular chip on their shoulder and have moved away from the role of 'peace officer' and towards 'enforcer of the law'. We don't have nearly enough of the former, and way too many of the latter. There are a number of reasons for this, some stem from the training that LEO's receive, some of it is factored from the isolation that you talk about. I can fully appreciate how a police officer can feel like a little removed from the rest of us, it's a natural defense mechanism in a high stress situation. The problem is that in many cases these days it borderlines on paranoia and sometimes manifests itself into malice or indifference.

What happens as a side effect, is that they get tougher on criminals (which is often necessary for their own survival) but they often lose the ability to turn that off (i.e. they'll treat everyone as a guilty felon until proven otherwise) and infringe on the rights of non-cops or maybe even worse, endanger them (i.e. covering a non-violent felon with your muzzle or using a Tac Team or SWAT unit to serve a simple warrant). This is where the divide becomes greater. Normal folks often feel they have a reason to distrust police officers because let's face it, even though most of us will never admit it, we've all been on the questionable side of the law at one time or other (whether it be smoking pot, stealing cable for a month or whatever). It's simply a natural instinct to get nervous around someone with the authority to take your freedom away (even if only temporary). In school, even the good kids had a certain fear of the dean.



Being a cop is one of the only professions where you are judge for your actions off duty as much as you are on duty. Screw up, even privately and you will be on the 6 O'Clock news. Most "mere civilians" don't have that much invasive criticism in their lives. Personally I think most cops would welcome the autonomy.


While not all professionals would be on the news for their out-of-office antics, I think you're hitting on the difference between jobs and professions, not cop and non-cop. Try being a teacher, or a doctor, or a subcontractor for the DoD. If a teacher goes out on the town and gets drunk, their career is next to over if a parent or someone that knows they're a teacher sees them. There are many examples where folks in certain professions have both their professional and personal conduct weighed against them. Just try sitting through a DoD inquiry about why you called your landlord a stupid %&$#@ and paid the rent late one month to spite her. Not fun man, not fun.

When a doctor gets on the news for verbally abusing his wife, there is no “thin red line” to protect him. Life ain’t easy being a professional anything.
 
Aloha------going to Medical School will do that to you too. Your idealism is lost very quickly. People are not easy to take care of. The reality of drug abuse, child abuse, drunks etc stomp out all the going to save the world stuff. That does not even get to the lying people will do to fradulantly get money from car wrecks, falls at Wal-Mart, SS Disability, breast implants, etc/ Then you get down to the cussing at you because they are mad at the world. I should have been a vet as then I would only have to worry about being bitten or kicked by my patients. :D
 
Sorry Kim, didn't mean to sound maudlin. You have a valid point.

Cane: In California, we are able to remove people out of their vehicles and search for weapons. For officer safety reasons we can also check the vehicle for weapons since the subjects can return to the vehicle to retrieve weapons. California is cool that way...
 
Alduro,

You are a credit to the The Job. I've read carefully what you have posted and concur. More than that, you have made some very succinct observations in a very thoughtful way.

As a former LEO (a long time ago; 1962-69) I understand very well the dynamics of being a police officer. I faired very well in the world, by the way, after I left. A couple of my fellow officers didn't. Two friends were suicides. I also lost three friends to gunshot wounds on the job.
The experiences that I had shaped much of my life since, in many ways, especially when it comes to personal freedom and rule of law, and my interactions with people in the world of business.

What a lot of people don't understand is the police officers are really just ordinary folks who have a job, but that job puts them in contact with the underbelly of society. It tends to wear on a person and it takes a strong person to separate the daily dreck and still be "socker dad".

It's easy for armchair commando's to question why cops do what they do.
My "rabbi" on my department once told me that "They don't pay you enough to get hurt on this job." I always thought about that when I was working. It is not easy to try and separate that emotion from being a peacemaker in a dicey situation. Your function is order, not disorder, even if harm is all about you.

Regarding the original post, sometimes officers are thinking less about the minutiae of Original Intent and just act like your next door neighbor.
 
Aloha, that far exceeds the terry doctrine, following that logic you should be able to go to his home and search it too. After all he could go home, get a gun, and return. If you have removed a subject from his vehicle, and of course you have him under controll, (s)he shouldn't be able to re-enter the vehicle until the LEO encounter is finished. Then (s)he wouldn't have any reason to retrieve a weapon, after all he is free to go. If you find something else, drugs, other illegial items, while fishing oops I mean checking for weapons, what do you do?
 
Regarding the original post, sometimes officers are thinking less about the minutiae of Original Intent and just act like your next door neighbor.
The problem with a cop acting like a next door neighbor while on the job is that the recipient of that treatment is not at liberty to act likewise. If my next door neighbor came over to my driveway and started snooping around inside my car, I'd ask him very angrily what the hell he thought he was doing, and I might even grab his arm and pull him out. Since you guys are essentially hired guns for the government, however, it's not an equal playing field, and those kinds of liberties in conduct can lead very easily to the general atmosphere of a police state. That's the reason we have constitutions designed to restrain your conduct when dealing with the public. Well, at any rate, that's why we used to have them.
 
Cane: A police officer can conduct a cursory examination of the passenger compartment (for weapons) of a vehicle during a traffic detention (see Michigan v. Long, 463 U.S. 1032)
 
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