Questions about OAL vs Factory ammo

[jmorris]

Not to mention they don’t always fit.

Like these Hornady 6mm cm ELD’s in a Ruger American, you can see how engaged the bullet is in the rifling (center), so much so if loaded, not fired and an attempt to eject occurs the bullet sticks and powder fouls the action (deformed tip from being driven back out of the bore).

 

[joneb]

So, your stuck with going minimum on everything,

So when the barrel throat erodes you can seat them longer

 

[higgite]

I had (emphasis on had) one pistol that wouldn't successfully plunk factory ammo, a Taurus G3. I don't know what standards Taurus builds to in Brazil.

 

[drband]

Do you mean cartridge? I have 30-30 Win, 308 Win and 30-06 these are the same Caliber. should I load all to the same COAL?

Yes— exact cartridge you have. Sorry.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I had (emphasis on had) one pistol that wouldn't successfully plunk factory ammo, a Taurus G3. I don't know what standards Taurus builds to in Brazil.

I own four USA built govt model 45acp1911s and similarly have no clue what specs they are built to. What I do know is they do not tolerate the same ammunition equally. Not talking about magazines but pistols themselves.

Before I started reloading I’d buy only Winchester & Remington to assure functionality. Now I load for three of them and the fourth sits mostly idle.

The fourth is just too finicky. I don’t know what’s “wrong” with it and at this point I don’t care.

I also don’t know how many angels dance on the head of a pin nor do I care.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Topics like this is why every hunt camp has “brand loyalty” discussions around the fire. “W ammo is the best and R just isn’t accurate…”; “Nope, it’s the F stuff that gets the meat and the W stuff just gums up the action…” etc., etc….
Maybe it seems like factory ammunition is made to work in every chamber - and for revolvers that’s mostly true, and maybe for the majority of self-loading pistols - but it’s just not so as a whole. The factories do a lot of R&D, partner with gunmakers, work through self-regulating agencies like SAAMI, all in an effort to make standards that they can follow safely and economically. But, in the end, it’s like the British found with their battle rifles: sloppy fits feed; tight fits don’t.

Factory ammo is pretty good these days, but it’s not the standard by which the average handloader should judge their own ammo. Just my opinion and worth every penny paid for it.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I also don’t know how many angels dance on the head of a pin

6.022 X 10^23

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Just be aware that nothing concerning accuracy comes cheaply.

This reminds me of my days of (very) amateur drag racing.

Speed costs money. How fast do you wanna go?

 

[CQB45ACP]

This reminds me of my days of (very) amateur drag racing.

Speed costs money. How fast do you wanna go?

Indeed. We used to spend thousands to eke out a hundredth to get times not even equal to today’s Honda odyssey.

 

[lordpaxman]

Or am i reading to much into this and im incorrect in my inital thesis

Iv notice that when firing my reloads in my own firearms i have very noticeable inconsistencies and one firearm that wont even cycle the cartridges

But those same 4 guns cycle and are relatively consistent using factory ammo i had laying around

Factory ammo does tend to humble a reloader. Keep in mind there have been a lot of threads related to “how do I duplicate factory ammo”. As was indicated before, there’s a spec and if you manufacture to that spec, or at least the minimums, ammo will chamber. How it shoots is questionable. Most of the time I use bullets that don’t have published data so I’ve got to plunk test in order to determine what COLs are valid for my guns. If you’re having cycling issues, and the rounds chamber, it’s usually too light a load.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Indeed. We used to spend thousands to eke out a hundredth to get times not even equal to today’s Honda odyssey.

Me and a few buddies built a front-engine rail - that will tell you how long ago it was - with cast-off parts.

We never went all that fast, but we sure drank a lot of beer.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Factory ammo does tend to humble a reloader. Keep in mind there have been a lot of threads related to “how do I duplicate factory ammo”.

A few decades ago it was fairly easy to load ammo that shot better than factory. With advances in manufacturing, that is not so easy these days.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Me and a few buddies built a front-engine rail - that will tell you how long ago it was - with cast-off parts.

We never went all that fast, but we sure drank a lot of beer.

Awesome! My favorite albeit dangerous beyond belief but as a teen in the 60s who cared?

 

[Akula69]

They keep it short.

Exactly. Take a box of factory ammo and your micrometer and measure the COL. Every single factory round will be less then SAAMI minimums. In fact, I was loading some G2 projectiles from Speer, and took a box of 9MM Speer-loaded G2 and measured them - most were way below 1.100 (some down to 1.080) and none were consistent. You can do much better with your own rounds...consistency and the replication thereof being top on the list.

 

[CQB45ACP]

A couple months ago I loaded a magazine with factory 45acp to see if I could tell difference with mine. Yes I could. Mine was better.

 

[Soonerpesek]

I also don’t know how many angels dance on the head of a pin

6.022 X 10^23

-1................I don't think I need to tell you who...................

 

[AJC1]

Pat yourself on the back, I guess, for your personal victory here, as idiotic as the argument you’re proposing has to be to do so. Yes, SAAMI and CIP chamber and cartridge specs have tighter tolerances than ASTM and SAE fastener specs, so yes, we’re more apt to see interference issues in rifles than nuts and bolts. But the same principles apply - manufacturers plan product specifications for any part which has to fit inside another to align sizes such the part going in should always be smaller than the part it goes into.

We can be certain, that no ammo manufacturer is walking around to every firearm in the country to make sure they have their sizing dies in their machines set to fit all of them. They make ammo on the smaller side of the published spec, and odds are, they avoid running into any issues with any chamber in the market.

Through extensive pain on my part and several calls to the lead die maker at rcbs, their dies are made to minimum chamber spec. That's why I could never get my brass to Sammi ammunition specifications. That evolution also taught me it was a nonsensical goal.

 

[AJC1]

Exactly. Take a box of factory ammo and your micrometer and measure the COL. Every single factory round will be less then SAAMI minimums. In fact, I was loading some G2 projectiles from Speer, and took a box of 9MM Speer-loaded G2 and measured them - most were way below 1.100 (some down to 1.080) and none were consistent. You can do much better with your own rounds...consistency and the replication thereof being top on the list.

If your used to shooting factory 9mm, long ones hand loaded that just pass plunk and function tests look funny. At least I was uncomfortable at first how long they looked.

 

[CQB45ACP]

If your used to shooting factory 9mm, long ones hand loaded that just pass plunk and function tests look funny. At least I was uncomfortable at first how long they looked.

I wonder if we casual pistol shooters even get our OAL correct anyway—might be like John Madden’s right foot/left foot first down measurement.

We (I) spend over $100 for a micrometer adjustable seating die for 45acp & 9mm. They seat using the ogive while we (I) measure using the tip.

If the tip is misformed on a bullet or the bullet isn’t shaped properly at the ogive what can the micrometer do about it? Nada. But maybe I need to buy more expensive bullets vs. Extreme, Acme, or Berry’s?

Again talking about pistol bullets not some fangdangeled rifle bullet for one of you experts (and I appreciate your expertise I really do but overly complex explanations just don’t help me). I know there are bullet comparators and such but not for lil boolits.

Oh well don’t mean to hijack someone else’s thread.

 

[AJC1]

I wonder if we casual pistol shooters even get our OAL correct anyway—might be like John Madden’s right foot/left foot first down measurement.

We (I) spend over $100 for a micrometer adjustable seating die for 45acp & 9mm. They seat using the ogive while we (I) measure using the tip.

If the tip is misformed on a bullet or the bullet isn’t shaped properly at the ogive what can the micrometer do about it? Nada. But maybe I need to buy more expensive bullets vs. Extreme, Acme, or Berry’s?

Again talking about pistol bullets not some fangdangeled rifle bullet for one of you experts (and I appreciate your expertise I really do but overly complex explanations just don’t help me). I know there are bullet comparators and such but not for lil boolits.

Oh well don’t mean to hijack someone else’s thread.

The blessing of most pistol bullets is their jump tolerant shapes. Some may be more sensitive like swc???? But in general rifle bullets seem to perform in much smaller windows. I absolutely understand range is a factor in rifle. One could use the same precision tools to measure and control oal just like rifle but I've never seen anyone who does that.

 

[CQB45ACP]

The blessing of most pistol bullets is their jump tolerant shapes. Some may be more sensitive like swc???? But in general rifle bullets seem to perform in much smaller windows. I absolutely understand range is a factor in rifle. One could use the same precision tools to measure and control oal just like rifle but I've never seen anyone who does that.

Cha Ching! I’m buying more stuff!

Seriously though, thanks

 

[ballman6711]

To measure to the ogive on a pistol bullet should be pretty easy. You just need a piece of brass slightly smaller than your loaded round.

Stand a 45acp reload up on your bench. Next place a 9mm case on top, mouth down. Then measure the total height. Take your next 45acp reload and do the same thing. Repeat until you're happy. The only thing to be sure of is that you use the same piece of brass each time in order to get consistent measurements.

You would most likely have a more consistent seating depth with more expensive (better) bullets, but if you can't shoot the difference then it's really a non-issue.

chris

 

[CQB45ACP]

To measure to the ogive on a pistol bullet should be pretty easy. You just need a piece of brass slightly smaller than your loaded round.

Stand a 45acp reload up on your bench. Next place a 9mm case on top, mouth down. Then measure the total height. Take your next 45acp reload and do the same thing. Repeat until you're happy. The only thing to be sure of is that you use the same piece of brass each time in order to get consistent measurements.

You would most likely have a more consistent seating depth with more expensive (better) bullets, but if you can't shoot the difference then it's really a non-issue.

chris

I actually have tried that. Maybe you suggested it before? It was challenging and I got the same measurements. It was a little too clunky for a regular practice but thanks for the reminder.

Under right circumstances I used to be able to shoot the difference. Sometimes I wish my memory would fail so I’d forget past good shooting—degradation is painful

 

[TacticalBacon]

So my question is now

if loaded to minimum Sammi spect to replicate factory compatability would i then need to back off my charge as im seating the bullet closer to the powder ?

By that logic i would be off grid so to speak or no long following safe book value?

Or are those starting charge weights accounting for the entire spectrum of sammi min and max coal

I ask because i notice in lee reloading manual there is a Min OAL for each charge which i assume mean going below the OAL makes that charge no longer safe by their calculations

 

[CQB45ACP]

@live

So my question is i loaded to minimum Sammi spect to replicate factory compatability would i then need to back off my charge as im seating the bullet closer to the powder ?

By that logic i would be off grid so to speak or no long following safe book value?

Or are those starting charge weights accounting for the entire spectrum of sammi min and max coal

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