Range Brass and the 308 Winchester

[DMW1116]

I’ve been tinkering with my 308 more lately and have a fair supply of range brass to reload. A lot of it is Winchester brass but I’ve seen Norma, IMI, PMC, PPU, FC, RP, and a few stamped 7.62 NATO.

I’ve heard the NATO cases are thicker and could lead to pressure problems. Is this true or just another rumor people say?

 

[thegatman]

Stay away from the NATO brass or reload them in their own batch. You should do everything to keep the loads consistent. Same primers, same cases, trim the cases, seat the bullet the same, same powder dosage.
It will make it easier to find inconsistencies.

 

[jmr40]

Military brass is OK, but you have to work up loads separately. It is thicker and the same amount of powder used in it will give higher pressures and more velocity. I've used it in the past and found that about 1.5-2 gr less powder worked best.

FWIW Federal brass is enough different that I reduce my loads when using it too.

All brass is somewhat different, but in my experience Winchester, Remington, Lapua, Nosler, and Hornady are close enough that I can use the same load data. Maybe others, but that is what I've used in the past. I still don't mix brass. For example, I may load a batch of 150 gr Hornady bullets in Winchester brass, 165's in Remington brass, my 155 gr target loads in Nosler, etc.

Nothing wrong with Federal, but I've just stopped using it. Same with military brass. I have enough of the other brands and I don't have to tweak my loads. If using only Federal brass it is as good as anything else.

 

[Airborne Falcon]

OP yes .... milspec 7.62x51 brass, usually but not always FC brass with a year stamp on it but also to include Radaway Green (RORG = Royal Ordance Radaway Green) and other NATO x51 ... they all tend to run thicker on the sidewalls.

I love loading FC and RORG for my M1a service rifles and for my SIG 716s and my SCAR Heavy. The advantage to using that brass is that it handles milspec ejectors better imho, plus I get a bunch of reloads out of it.

I always, ALWAYS, sort my brass. I prep the different flavors separately and load them separately but I do a lot at a time because I am generally working brass I get from Fort Jackson, belt fed leftovers, by the 5 gallon bucket full, sometimes two or three buckets at a time.

If you're loading for a bolt gun your range brass will work just fine. Good luck and have fun. Even with the milspec brass just start on the lowest end of the recommendation by the book and you'll be fine. You do not need start lower than that. Start at the bottom of the book and work up.

 

[DMW1116]

I’m shooting from a PSA PA10 with adjustable gas block and 20” barrel. I’ve used mixed brass with a 175 SMK load with good results. I developed that load with Winchester brass but loaded with a variety of brass: Winchester, RP, FC. I have 150 Hornady 168 grain Amax projectiles to load. I typically sort my brass by head stamp. I have Winchester, RP, FC, PMC, Norma, & IMI. Some is definitely stamped 7.62. Some just has the little cross inside a circle like LC 5.56 brass has. There is also a year stamp. I assume these are also 7.62. I’ll know more after I clean and sort them tomorrow.

 

[DMW1116]

I sorted through that pile of brass after cleaning. I have basically an even proportion of Norma 308, IMI, and GGG 7.62. There are a couple LC and a Federal and Hornady and a few PMC 308 in there for variety.

They're all drying now but I plan to load the Norma, Hornady, Federal, and PMC. These are all marked 308 Win and do not have crimped primer pockets. The others I’ll save for my next load, which I think will be an attempt to replicate the Winchester White Box 7.62 NATO M80.

 

[Middletown]

Re-sizing brass from my son's AR-10 is tough probably due to a generous sized chamber. Imperial sizing wax helped a bunch but still tough. I have heard more than once this is a common problem with 308. Even more so with brass from a machine gun.

 

[DMW1116]

I haven’t noticed much difficulty compared to my 30-30. Maybe I’m just not paying attention.

Most of what I have came from a single range trip. The group next to me was shooting 3 different bolt actions and gave me the brass. I think it was two 308s and a 223.

I’ve seen the guy several times tuning up his rifles. He must have them set properly as he brings the kids and grandkids now.

I cleaned and sorted quite a few 223 cases from the same trip, most of it Lake City or IMI. It will give me enough to load the rest of my 55 grain Hornady soft points with the new TAC load I tried yesterday.

 

[redcon1]

I’ve heard the NATO cases are thicker and could lead to pressure problems. Is this true or just another rumor people say?

I think it's true and primarily an issue if you're talking about a max load. It's just one more thing that can raise your pressures over a safe limit, like powder lot variations, temperature sensitivity and high ambient temperatures, working your load up to max pressure in spring and then shooting it in the middle of the summer, etc.
Incidentally, it isn't a known issue with 5.56 NATO cases, only with 7.62 NATO cases and Lake City is typically implicated. I'm not sure about foreign brands. Lake CITY, IMO, is excellent brass but I do keep in mind that it is known to have decreased internal volume due to thicker walls. It is also harder than average.

 

[redcon1]

Re-sizing brass from my son's AR-10 is tough probably due to a generous sized chamber. Imperial sizing wax helped a bunch but still tough. I have heard more than once this is a common problem with 308. Even more so with brass from a machine gun.

That's my experience as well. I find that it's especially tough trimming them down to size after the first full length resizing. The hand cranked trimmer gets real old real fast. A power trimmer makes life a lot easier with this stuff. I always size them the first time with a Forster SB die and then, after I shoot it, I use regular Forster full length dies. I "plunk" them in a JP Enterprises case gauge to ensure that the body has been adequately resized and I use the imperial sizing wax.

 

[DMW1116]

Ah, I see now. I haven’t reloaded any of my brass more than once except for 38/357 and 9mm. I have a pile of rifle brass in the calibers I reload waiting for the day I have to reload them again. It may be more difficult but I have quite a few range trips before it becomes an issue.

 

[Slamfire]

I’ve been tinkering with my 308 more lately and have a fair supply of range brass to reload. A lot of it is Winchester brass but I’ve seen Norma, IMI, PMC, PPU, FC, RP, and a few stamped 7.62 NATO.

I’ve heard the NATO cases are thicker and could lead to pressure problems. Is this true or just another rumor people say?

Off the top of my head, the LC cases I used were around 177 grains per case. My IMI cases were right there. I had gallon baggies of Federal NM ammunition, collected when the Service Rifle Teams were using Federal Gold Medal Match. That brass varied from 155 to 168 grains a case. Case weight variance on 308 Win brass is all over the place.

If you really want to know, weigh them, and sort them by weight. If you are shooting maximum loads, weight differences make a difference. Stick to midrange loads and you won't know a difference, at least pressure wise. And, you have to be a very good shot to see much of an accuracy difference with mixed cases. I am sure they are there, but shooting prone with a sling, I was not that good.

Mixed cases in a 30-06 hunting rifle at 300 yards



308 Win M70 sporting rifle, mixed cases, three hundred yards.



cheap bullets and cheap scope too!

 

[z7]

LC and FC brass are thicker than Win, hornady and lapua

win is thinnest with most case capacity

FC is soft, primer pockets go bad soonest (3-5 firings)

LC is hard, tough brass

many 308 win branded cases have significant case capacity differences (so does 556)

a max load in Winchester or hornady 308 is likely over max pressure in LC or FC brass

the variance between brands in terms of volume, neck wall thickness, neck tension, etc is enough to notice on target (any cartridge honestly)

if you are shooting mild loads of plinking ammo or just want to hit a deer vitals at 150 yds and in, you won’t notice a difference, but do pay attention if you are trying to hot rod (not recommended) or Attempting to maximize accuracy

This is my experience, ymmv

 

[Ironicaintit]

Re-sizing brass from my son's AR-10 is tough probably due to a generous sized chamber. Imperial sizing wax helped a bunch but still tough. I have heard more than once this is a common problem with 308. Even more so with brass from a machine gun.

For really tough and blown out brass, I recommend a 50/50 mix of 30w oil and STP. It's like greased butter. A little messy, but makes sizing a breeze

 

[DMW1116]

My loads are typically in the lower half of the load range. Then again who can say. My CFE load I plan to use this brass with is 46 grains and a 168 grain Amax. That’s near the top for Hornadys data and below the minimum for data from Hodgden for a 168 grain SMK. Different bullets I know but they don’t even overlap.

 

[PapaG]

I would only load commercial, sorted by brand brass and start at "starting" loads.

 

[lordpaxman]

I’ve heard the NATO cases are thicker and could lead to pressure problems. Is this true or just another rumor people say?

I’ve found NATO cases have less volume. But any mixed brass situation can lead to pressure problems especially in the rifle world. Good luck.

 

[JFrank]

When I quit using mixed range brass my reloaded ammunition got a lot better.
Case volume is one aspect another is neck thickness varies enough to effect the bullet hold and lastly I just hate sorting through all the headstamps.

 

[dh1633pm]

I only use LC for my 308 and 7.62 rifles. Easier to use all one type. I have had good results. As a side benefit, the slightly lower charge over time leaves me with more powder. I probably save about .001 per loading.

 

[Charlie98]

Case weight variance on 308 Win brass is all over the place.

if you are shooting mild loads of plinking ammo or just want to hit a deer vitals at 150 yds and in, you won’t notice a difference, but do pay attention if you are trying to hot rod (not recommended) or Attempting to maximize accuracy

Slam's experience mimics mine... .308/7.62mm case weights are all over the map, and that includes cases within the same headstamp, including Prvi, LC/Federal, PMC and some others. I do not make generalizations with .308 brass for this reason... about the only thing I would say is NATO crossed brass is typically heavier than some commercial brass, although I've had commercial brass weigh (weight, not volume...) as much or more than LC, et al.

The others I’ll save for my next load, which I think will be an attempt to replicate the Winchester White Box 7.62 NATO M80.

M80 ammos is quite near the top of the pressure range... it is nothing to trifle with. I have made the choice to work up my 'M80 equivalent' load using the node below what I found with factory/surplus M80, loaded in the heaviest brass I had (PMC.) For this reason, I can safely load that load in any brass that I might have (although I've standardized brass for that purpose to Prvi white box for simplicity reasons.) My M80 load is about 100-125FPS lower than factory/surplus M80, which is fine for my purposes.

Circling back to the accuracy issue, if you are really planning on loading an accuracy load, I would find the most consistent brass, that you have enough of, and work up in that. Trying to load for accuracy in mix-master range brass can be an exercise in futility, and particularly if you are looking for good SD numbers.

 

[DMW1116]

The three loads I’ve done successfully for this rifle were all done in Winchester brass. I guess I’ll try to make M79 instead (just a bit less than M80). I have enough military brass to make it worth doing separately.

 

[Engineer1911]

I would toss PPU and crimped primer brass in the junk bucket -- aint worth the effort.

EDIT: I maybe one of the four people on earth with access to unlimited brass. I get what I want or else it goes in the recycle bucket. Crimp removal is done with a drill press and solid carbide countersink, case mouth and primer pocket takes about 1.875 seconds, unless arthritis is acting up.

 

[AJC1]

I would toss PPU and crimped primer brass in the junk bucket -- aint worth the effort.

Hornaday factory 308 is crimped.... I load mostly Remington, but I have lots of segregated brass prepped in almost every brand. I develop a rifle load in a certain head stamp and it's for that headstamp only. Pistol brass is not near as widely different.

 

[Middletown]

I have found removing the crimp from brass with the right tool to be pretty fast and painless, but then I do my reloading on a single stage press. To me it takes less time to remove the crimp than deciding if the brass has a crimp on brass where that is a question. Makes the primer pockets uniform and once you get the feel you can segregate the brass that just doesn't feel right.

 

[DMW1116]

I’ve become a firm believer in decrimping gear. As hard as primers are to find it’s a cheap solution to get a proper crimp removal tool or just get rid of the crimped brass.