Range Danger

[Axis II]

First let me say i love my part time job (hospital protective services). We train a lot and they don’t mind spending money on it. 2hrs of paid range time every 2-3 month with 100-200rds of free ammo. Our state certified instructors, most of who are also on local SWAT teams put us through drills. We do active shooter with sound simulators, CO2 powered airsoft pistols that match our duty guns. They won’t even interview you unless you have some sort of LE or military combat experience. Its really a class A setup they have for us. Now for the state certification every year….this is done for everyone in the state within a 100 mile radius of the training center and you get everyone from NASA, Federal Protective Services to your $8hr security guard who’s 90yo and sleeps 6hrs of his shift. Not knocking them because everyone needs a job but some of these people shouldn’t carry firearms.

I’ve been doing this for about 14yrs and just when I thought i have seen some of the dumbest stuff on the range like trying to qualify 50ft with a shield or LC9, blackhawk holsters banned due to someone shooting their leg i found myself staring at a 80yo man with a 357, qualifying with 357 ammo pointing the gun, hammer back right at my face yesterday.

We start at 15ft, everyone in a line and I notice this guy 2 men to my right with a revolver about to fall out of the holster. The holster was not for his gun because the trigger guard wasn’t covered at all and it’s literally fraying. It almost looked like a cowboy holster. Whistle goes off and we are supposed to draw, fire 2rds, sul position, look over your shoulder for a threat and reholster. We fire our two and I hear oh, sh.., guy to my right literally runs backwards and I look to my right and here is the revolver guy with a 357 pointed right at me with the hammer back. I immediately jumped backwards and the instructor noticed and took the mans gun. The instructor stated haven’t you been coming here for like 20yrs? Electronic ear muffs probably saved my behind yesterday cause hearing the guy next to me say what he did definitely got my attention. After the range the instructor asked how many actually shoot more than just this time each year. A class of 20 only the guys who are forced by their agency raised their hands. I think next year I’ll be wearing body armor.

 

[old lady new shooter]

First let me say i love my part time job (hospital protective services). We train a lot and they don’t mind spending money on it. 2hrs of paid range time every 2-3 month with 100-200rds of free ammo. Our state certified instructors, most of who are also on local SWAT teams put us through drills. We do active shooter with sound simulators, CO2 powered airsoft pistols that match our duty guns. They won’t even interview you unless you have some sort of LE or military combat experience. Its really a class A setup they have for us. Now for the state certification every year….this is done for everyone in the state within a 100 mile radius of the training center and you get everyone from NASA, Federal Protective Services to your $8hr security guard who’s 90yo and sleeps 6hrs of his shift. Not knocking them because everyone needs a job but some of these people shouldn’t carry firearms.

I’ve been doing this for about 14yrs and just when I thought i have seen some of the dumbest stuff on the range like trying to qualify 50ft with a shield or LC9, blackhawk holsters banned due to someone shooting their leg i found myself staring at a 80yo man with a 357, qualifying with 357 ammo pointing the gun, hammer back right at my face yesterday.

We start at 15ft, everyone in a line and I notice this guy 2 men to my right with a revolver about to fall out of the holster. The holster was not for his gun because the trigger guard wasn’t covered at all and it’s literally fraying. It almost looked like a cowboy holster. Whistle goes off and we are supposed to draw, fire 2rds, sul position, look over your shoulder for a threat and reholster. We fire our two and I hear oh, sh.., guy to my right literally runs backwards and I look to my right and here is the revolver guy with a 357 pointed right at me with the hammer back. I immediately jumped backwards and the instructor noticed and took the mans gun. The instructor stated haven’t you been coming here for like 20yrs? Electronic ear muffs probably saved my behind yesterday cause hearing the guy next to me say what he did definitely got my attention. After the range the instructor asked how many actually shoot more than just this time each year. A class of 20 only the guys who are forced by their agency raised their hands. I think next year I’ll be wearing body armor.

SCARY! Glad you are here to tell the tale.

 

[Targa]

Yikes!!! That would be scary. I am pretty surprised that body armor isn’t required during a qualification course, especially a state certification course.

 

[Axis II]

SCARY! Glad you are here to tell the tale.

One of the state instructors said he had been shot from someone drawing from a blackhawk holster and the gun went off and ricocheted. All the instructors have body armor on and I just didn’t want to drag it home with me so i left it at work. One would think people who carry a firearm 40hrs a week would have more sense.

 

[Axis II]

Yikes!!! That would be scary. I am pretty surprised that body armor isn’t required during a qualification course.

Instructors wear it. When i went through the police academy it was required 100% of the time on the range. Some of the nasa and fed guys wear theirs cause our employers pay for it. Work just got us the newest safariland setup and it was $1500. Most the guys qualifying don’t make much money so they don’t have armor.

 

[Outlaw75]

Why did he have it pointed your way? Malfunction and he was trying to figure out what was going on?

 

[Axis II]

Why did he have it pointed your way? Malfunction and he was trying to figure out what was going on?

I’m guessing he didn’t know what sul was so he tried his own way i guess. I’m not even joking when i say this guy was 80yo. He could barely walk. He was reloading from his pocket when semi auto shooters were supposed to drop a mag and reload. I almost went next door to the gun store and bought him speed loaders but he wasn’t a very nice person. He made a comment to one of our instructors about race that cause an argument before we left.

 

[dogtown tom]

...................with a revolver about to fall out of the holster. The holster was not for his gun because the trigger guard wasn’t covered at all and it’s literally fraying. It almost looked like a cowboy holster.

Did these state instructors not eyeball each students equipment before the range went hot?

 

[dogtown tom]

I’m guessing he didn’t know what sul was so he tried his own way i guess. I’m not even joking when i say this guy was 80yo. He could barely walk. He was reloading from his pocket when semi auto shooters were supposed to drop a mag and reload. I almost went next door to the gun store and bought him speed loaders but he wasn’t a very nice person. He mad a comment to one of our instructors about race that cause an argument before we left.

Age, locomotor ability and race has absolutely nothing to do with safety.
With his unsafe behavior he should have been sent home.

 

[LoonWulf]

One would think people who carry a firearm 40hrs a week would have more sense

Carry, not use......its just a flashlight during the day to most of them. Id be if they took it off to poop they would forget it.
We all assume people feel the same way and have a healthy respect for firearms we do.....not the case.

Stupid is why safety is done in layers, cause we ALL gonna do stupid some time.

 

[Ks5shooter]

Glad I built a range on my farm.I have the last word for who comes to shoot.Too many youtube gun owners around.

 

[The Night Rider]

One of the state instructors said he had been shot from someone drawing from a blackhawk holster and the gun went off and ricocheted. All the instructors have body armor on and I just didn’t want to drag it home with me so i left it at work. One would think people who carry a firearm 40hrs a week would have more sense.

Sounds like a Top Flight operation to me

 

[Axis II]

Did these state instructors not eyeball each students equipment before the range went hot?

Nope. To be honest, this new group (company) that runs it is all about $. The outfit that used to run it would loan you a full size if you didn’t have it, if you came in with improper equipment they outfitted you. I forgot safety glasses yesterday and was told it would be $10 to rent them. $20 for eyes and ears. Rent one of their guns $25, $10 for a holster and $10 for mags. The old company had a box of eyes and ears for everyone for free. After the class they tried to sell everyone t shirts with their company logo. 2yrs ago that shredded leather holster wouldn’t have flown. Had the old company been in charge that man would have been sent home.

 

[Axis II]

Age, locomotor ability and race has absolutely nothing to do with safety.
With his unsafe behavior he should have been sent home.

Not saying it does. I’m saying he was just a jackwagon all around. He made a comment to an African American instructor, was asked multiple times why he had a cigar hanging out of his mouth in the classroom portion and range, why he’s shooting full power 357 loads, it took him about 3min to walk 50ft. Again, I honestly feel its all about the $ with this new company the state uses is why he wasn’t sent home. Before these guys took over he would have probably never made it to the range. The range used to rent a classroom and private range to a company of instructors. The range decided to hire in house state instructors, fire the company that had been doing it since 2000 so now its all pure profit. It cost each person $100 to qualify. Multiply that by 20 students, 2x week. last year when the new outfit took over they tried saying you had to buy ammo from them but the state put a stop to that. They got me at $20-box.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Last week at the range. There was an older guy shooting in an air rifle. He was on the 25-200 yard range. I was on the 300 yard range. The benches for it are about 75 yards away. Any way when he was done . He went to grab his targets. I saw him when i was changing mags. He didn't yell over to let me know. He was going down range. Even though i was shooting further over from him. And chances are nothing would have happened. He still should have let me know.

 

[dartor]

If it were my range he wouldn't be coming back.

Glad you and everyone else is ok.

 

[herrwalther]

I have been an RSO in some profession or another going back 20 years. The best and safest way is to have someone next to each shooter. That way if they do something unsafe, that instructor is right there to make a correction and call cease fire if necassary. I have never liked having multiple students of people I did not know. It was different when I had the same students over and over. Those times I had an idea who was competant and safe on their own and who needed more attention. Having a one on one safty with each shooter isn't always viable though.

One of my first times with multiple students I was a lane safety on a night shooting range with the Army. I was responsible for 3 lanes in the dark. Anyone who has been on military ranges know there is a decent distance between each lane, about 50 yards. I checked my first two lanes and assumed the third was well. I waved my "safe" chemlight to the range tower. Then I heard a fall before the range went hot. Waved cease fire light. Ran to my third lane to find a little female soldier that couldn't see over the concrete pit, so she was standing on an ammo box. That was the crash I heard. She also had somehow loaded her magazine backwards and had a primer forward jam. She got a bulk of my schooling that night.

 

[Riomouse911]

When human beings are involved, there is always a chance for something to go sideways. The SO staff at the range I frequented, who handle the use of force/CPR/EVOC and firearms trimester training for several thousand sworn LEO’s annually, have gobs of stories about people who did stupid stuff on the range.

If someone is so obviously poorly trained on the range, or arrives improperly equipped so they constitute a danger, RSO 101 says immediately stop all gun-related exercises, make safe, holster up, isolate the dangerous condition and send the offenders for remedial training/proper equipment before allowing them back near live ammo and guns.

Failing persons who are incompetent/incapable is not a bad thing. I see people fail ccw quals at my local range all the time. Just like the sworn at the sheriffs ranges, the ccw folks are offered remedial training, which is tailored to address their weaknesses and usually gets them to where they are successful.

If they fail after the remedial steps, or refuse to participate, goodbye. (For sworn, failing remedial training was almost always an adios from the profession.)

If a company isn’t protecting themselves and their personnel by addressing the shenanigans you described, then the company and their employees deserve to get sued out of business by someone harmed by an incompetent person that they allowed to remain a danger at the facility or approved for qualification.

Oh, please wear a vest on the range! It’s THAT guy I am worried about punching a hole through my gut, not me.

Good luck and stay safe.

 

[CDW4ME]

Wonder how they would rate their skill level.

 

[shafter]

First let me say i love my part time job (hospital protective services). We train a lot and they don’t mind spending money on it. 2hrs of paid range time every 2-3 month with 100-200rds of free ammo. Our state certified instructors, most of who are also on local SWAT teams put us through drills. We do active shooter with sound simulators, CO2 powered airsoft pistols that match our duty guns. They won’t even interview you unless you have some sort of LE or military combat experience. Its really a class A setup they have for us. Now for the state certification every year….this is done for everyone in the state within a 100 mile radius of the training center and you get everyone from NASA, Federal Protective Services to your $8hr security guard who’s 90yo and sleeps 6hrs of his shift. Not knocking them because everyone needs a job but some of these people shouldn’t carry firearms.

I’ve been doing this for about 14yrs and just when I thought i have seen some of the dumbest stuff on the range like trying to qualify 50ft with a shield or LC9, blackhawk holsters banned due to someone shooting their leg i found myself staring at a 80yo man with a 357, qualifying with 357 ammo pointing the gun, hammer back right at my face yesterday.

We start at 15ft, everyone in a line and I notice this guy 2 men to my right with a revolver about to fall out of the holster. The holster was not for his gun because the trigger guard wasn’t covered at all and it’s literally fraying. It almost looked like a cowboy holster. Whistle goes off and we are supposed to draw, fire 2rds, sul position, look over your shoulder for a threat and reholster. We fire our two and I hear oh, sh.., guy to my right literally runs backwards and I look to my right and here is the revolver guy with a 357 pointed right at me with the hammer back. I immediately jumped backwards and the instructor noticed and took the mans gun. The instructor stated haven’t you been coming here for like 20yrs? Electronic ear muffs probably saved my behind yesterday cause hearing the guy next to me say what he did definitely got my attention. After the range the instructor asked how many actually shoot more than just this time each year. A class of 20 only the guys who are forced by their agency raised their hands. I think next year I’ll be wearing body armor.

Sounds like a weak qualification course. Fifty feet should be more than doable for a Smith Shield for someone who's getting paid to be armed. Based on what you said I'd be nervous to train there. If there is only one RO for 20 people that isn't close to enough. I'd want 3 or 4 and I'd put the weak shooters on one end of the line and the better shooters on the other side where I wouldn't need to focus as much attention.

Some safety violations get you a lecture and one second chance. Others like pointing a loaded and cocked revolver at someone's face get you permanently banned from my range.

At certain ranges where the shooters are at a high level, it's acceptable to go down range of another shooter as long as there is an appropriate level of lateral separation between shooters. This is not most ranges though and for good reason.

 

[CapnMac]

One would think people who carry a firearm 40hrs a week would have more sense.

Hence the old adage about "Familiarity breeds contempt."

 

[drk1]

Thanks for posting and congrats on surviving. You may want to buy a lottery ticket! Range safety and competency are constant issues, often compounded by age. I'm glad you survived, but how was it resolved? The state owned range that is nearest to me and which I helped build many years ago was recently remodeled. Unfortunately, they put two old guys in charge who obviously try to outdrink each other every day before noon. The range is operated by the state DNR, and I've spoken to several folks in that office, but no one is willing to do anything. I don't use the range any longer because of the safety issues they have created or allowed to grow. Any suggestions on how to address the issues you bring up would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again.

 

[Pivot Dr]

When I was in Basic Training in ‘71 we had a Company idiot. One day we were doing full auto with M16s, down in our sewer pipes, aka, fox holes, when “the idiot” crawls out of his hole and is waving his rifle with a full magazine around trying to get the range master’s attention. He couldn’t make it work! He got everybody’s attention right quick. How we got lucky and he didn’t kill about a dozen guys before the online range officer laid a hit on him that any linebacker would have been proud of and got the gun away from him.
As a side note: we didn’t get to fire a LAW in training because another company idiot a few weeks earlier fired it backwards taking out the “old man’s” pride and joy pickup. There’s always one everywhere you go!

 

[unspellable]

Used to be a CSO (Club Safety Officer) at a skydiving operation. I could tell similar war stories, but they'd be off topic here. There are some people who would be dangerous sitting in a rocking chair.