Range Safety Question

[John Ross]

I'd like to see what other people think about a range safety issue. PLEASE read my question carefully and answer my specific question, not what you THINK I'm going to ask from a quick glance .

Understand that my mind is made up on this issue, but I want to see if anyone agrees with me.

Situation: You have just arrived at a lightly-attended range. You set up on one end of the line, in front of the 25-yard pistol butts. The nearest shooter to you is over 100 feet away, in front of the 200-yard rifle butts. The line has just gone "hot".

You tell the Range Officer "I'm going to do some chronographing. May I set up my stands six feet in front of my bench while the range is hot, or do you want me to wait 1/2 hour 'til the next cease-fire?" Alternatively, if there is no Range Officer around, you walk down to the nearest shooters (40 yards away) and ask the same question.

I understand that the answer may be "No, you'll have to wait, those are the rules."

My question: Is it ACCEPTABLE for the range officer to say "Sure, there's no one near you. I'll go tell the other shooters so they know you asked first."

If there's no range officer, is it acceptable for the other shooters to say "Okay" when you ask them?

If you were there and saw a range officer do this, would you say to yourself "This range is really unsafe, I'm never coming back"?

JR

 

[El Tejon]

It depends (what a tilecrawler answer).

Do I know the man on my flank? What is he doing? What are the club rules?

If I know the man to my side, the man to my side is not doing transition drills (from long to short), and there are no club rules, then I'd do it. However, if any of those 3 apply, I would not. Get set up, talk on the cell phone, fire up the laptop and log on THR.

Of course, I'm not a techie, so I would not be doing this ever.

 

[jsalcedo]

Not unless there was a burm seperating me from the other shooters.

Its just not worth it.

 

[Kharn]

I usually have so much stuff to cart from my truck to the firing line (~50 yards apart and down a hill, so I cant just drive the truck up to the bench), it normally takes me an entire shooting period to get situated and ready to put targets up.

Back to your question, how long would it take to set the chrono up? Is it like just walk out 6 feet and set the tripod down, or do you need to stake/sandbag/reinforce it? If its just going to be like 30 seconds, I'd say it would be acceptable for the RO to let the other shooters know (and I'd expect them to stop firing for the time you're out there, sort of a mini-cease fire).

Kharn

 

[keyhole]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Never step forward of other shooters, no matter how long the line is. Just safe practice.Have had to remind others of that all the time.

Seen too many holes in the barriers at the 25 yard line. 90 degree bullet?

 

[cslinger]

Well in that case I would simply go ask the shooter if he would mind waiting a minute or two while I set my Chrono up. I assume this doesn't take long.

Personally I don't go out into no man's land anywhere. Yeah I guess statistically speaking the shooter would have to do something really stupid to put a round into you from 100' away and you are only 6 ' and I guess if he did something that stupid it probably wouldn't matter if you were 6' out or not but I personally would rather either ask him to hold fire for a couple of seconds or just wait.

That's just me though.

Chris

 

[newman32]

I agree w/ cslinger. If it is just one other shooter, he might not mind letting you set up and waiting for you. Otherwise, I would think it is by the book and you just have to wait. If you showed up with 10, 15 or 20 minutes until the next cease fire, you would have to wait anyway.

 

[cslinger]

One thing I forgot to mention is that if I was the shooter at the other end I would have no problem with safeing up and waiting for you should you ask me.

Now if you just walked out there I would probably flip if I saw you out of the corner of my eye while I was shooting.

Chris

 

[DMK]

One thing I forgot to mention is that if I was the shooter at the other end I would have no problem with safeing up and waiting for you should you ask me.

Now if you just walked out there I would probably flip if I saw you out of the corner of my eye while I was shooting

Same here. I don't think it's acceptable, in any case, to cross the firing line until all weapons are secured. I've seen folks walk just a foot in front of the benches to collect brass and it's freaked me out.

 

[Justin]

That's pretty much the case at the club where I'm a member. There is a section with the pistol berms, and then there are two areas for rifle shooters. The rifle line and the pistol line call cease-fires independantly.

There is, however, a berm between the rifle and pistol areas.

*shrugs shoulders*

 

[Zak Smith]

My question: Is it ACCEPTABLE for the range officer to say "Sure, there's no one near you. I'll go tell the other shooters so they know you asked first."

If there's no range officer, is it acceptable for the other shooters to say "Okay" when you ask them?

No, No.

If you were there and saw a range officer do this, would you say to yourself "This range is really unsafe, I'm never coming back"?

Probably.

Range rules are like the 4 rules of gun safety: you religiously follow a small set of rules so that accidents can't cause damage. In the case of the "firing line", I think the limit is not walking past it.

I have no problem with someone reaching in front of it (e.g. to adjust chrono position, if it's close to the bench), given their body does not go past, and shooters are very sparsely spaced.

Something to ponder, though: IPSC/USPSA has the "90 degree rule" which states you cannot point your pistol (rifle, or shotgun) past 90 degrees from "downrange". It's fine to shoot directly into the side berm. So if the rest of the squad is merely a little bit behind the start of stage line - say 10 feet or so, then it's possible for the shooter to shoot within like 30-45 degrees of the other people. In your range example, it's still at 85+ degrees.

-z

 

[spacemanspiff]

i second what everyone else has said: not safe.

but i have another comment. the range i go to has nifty wheelbarrows for people who have loads of gear. i use them because i usually am carting 1000+ rounds along with 2-4 guns, along with my range bag full of targets, tools, cleaning kits, etc, except for the one thing i need on that particular day. murphys law.

so if you need a way to get your gear to the line, why not get a wagon and load everything on that?

 

[dooley]

To answer your question, yes I would be very weary of a rangemaster that allowed someone to go beyond the line while others are shooting and would consider the range unsafe. However, if he talked to the other shooters and they agreed to stop – no big deal.

Two similar scenarios happened to me. I was scoping a 30.06 at 100 yards when I noticed two guys walk out to the 25 yard mound and start to put up targets. I stopped and walked down to their area and explained that the range was hot. Another was when the range was clear and I was checking targets - someone started shooting on the pistol section. Somebody else ran down to the guy and yelled at him, but he defended himself by saying this part of the range is separate than the long gun. I quickly left. Both instances were extremely unsafe and make me pay too much attention to others when I am at the range.

 

[shooten]

Accidents happen when people stay on the correct side of the red line. Either wait or politely ask the other shooters for a few minutes to set up.

Scott

 

[Mikul]

The RO or the other shooters could tell you that it's okay, but everyone would have to put their guns down.

If it is going to take you more than one minute, you should wait until the next cease fire. I usually set my chrono up behind the line on a tripod and then drop it in front of the line and level it. It takes less than 30 seconds.

 

[t driver]

"My question: Is it ACCEPTABLE for the range officer to say "Sure,
there's no one near you. I'll go tell the other shooters so they know you
asked first."

Absolutely not.

"If there's no range officer, is it acceptable for the other shooters to
say "Okay" when you ask them?"

OK to going in front of a hot line? NO
OK to another cease fire where the guns are benched and clear? Yes

"If you were there and saw a range officer do this, would you say to
yourself "This range is really unsafe, I'm never coming back"?"

No, I wouldn't say that, but I would operate by what I consider to be safe practices. There is no reason to lower yourself to practices you consider unsafe. It is acceptable to voice any concerns to a RO or the owner.

I am a part-time RO at a local range and the situation you describe could lead to immediate ejection at our range. Range breaks are called by mutual consent of the shooters if a RO is not present. We have 5 seperate ranges and can't cover all of them at once, but do our best and try to get to any range that has called a break just to be sure all guns are benched and not being handled. ANY time a range break is called, ALL guns are to be cleared and benched. The only time a person is allowed in front of the line, even leaning too far forward, is during a range break. No exceptions.

We (at our range) encourage people to let us know about practices people observe or consider to be unsafe. Many times a person, especially a new shooter, doesn't realize he/she is making someone uncomfortable and many people don't want to confront someone they don't know with their concerns. Keeping people safe and informed about safety is part of the job of a RO, and I have never had anyone ignore me or become beligerant about being informed about safety practices and rules.

No one wants accidents to happen.

 

[Jordan]

I disagree with (practically) everyone

I don't see any problem with this scenario whatsoever.

Don't get me wrong! I love safety. But some of some range safety rules are dogmatic and defy common sense.

I accept a degree of risk when I go to the range (much less risk than I took driving to get there) and I accept an implied degree of mutual trust in my fellow users (that they aren't unhinged idiots...if they are nothing can save me anyway).

Would we THINK of placing two rifle ranges facing each other, side by side, no berm, shooting at a target several feet to right of the other shooter? Of course not!! (and I'm not suggesting we do)

"Well what if he flinches as he pulls the trigger!! I'm only a few feet from his target! It's not at all safe!!"

That's it! Let's insist DOT place berms (or at least guardrails) between every lane on every road. Anything less is madness!

***YOU DON'T HAVE TO REPLY AND TELL ME YOU THINK I'M WRONG*** I don't expect anyone to agree with me. I just wanted to introduce some perspective to the "religion" of range safety.

 

[Delmar]

The short answer is-anyone going down range calls for a cease fire and for all shooters to show clear, put their weapons down and step away from the shooting bench. Period.

If you start bending the rules, they will continue to be bent until someone is involved in a shooting accident at some point. Not worth it.

Here's the deal-I don't know you, I don't know what your safety habits are, and I don't know the mechanical condition of your weapon, and it seems foolish to me to risk life or limb because a shooter is in a rush or under time constraints, or is simply distracted by whatever.
That said, I don't mind taking a reasonable break so another shooter can join in the fun. But please be considerate-don't request a ceasefire to set up targets and your chrono, and then begin to unpack your gear. Get it ready to go before you ask for permission to go down range.

....and I get nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs when I see a muzzle going anywhere but down range-90 degree rule, IMO, is not safe. The muzzle does not go to the left of the first target or right of the last target on the range.

For me, if I do not have the time to deal with range safety rules, I head for the wide open spaces and do my shooting across the prairie.

 

[Zak Smith]

90 degree rule, IMO, is not safe. The muzzle does not go to the left of the first target or right of the last target on the range.

Well, see, the thing is, there often are targets in IPSC placed in front of the side berms. Just about all action shooting sports have some kind of "90 degree" rule.


-z

 

[Doug]

I'm surprised that there is this much discussion on this subject. Some people may think some rules are made to be broken but, when it comes to guns and safety there are no exceptions. Period.