Rant- What the h@ll Kel-Tec?!?

[Rex B]

I'm with Wilson on that. I've had 5 KTs so far, one was jamming right off so I exchanged it. Since then only one FTE from a very dirty gun.
I'm about to buy a couple more new ones. Sure like those Chrome/Navy ones.

"If Craftsman put out tools like these nobody would buy them"

They do, and I don't.

 

[quickcanary]

Myself and most other Kel-Tec buyers would rather spend 10 minutes smoothing tool marks with a piece of sandpaper than pay an extra $25-$50. In fact, Kel-Tec pistol tinkering has given me a better understanding of how guns work. For that I thank them. I would not dare totally dissembling a $500 pistol and it would likely void its warranty. Should I mess up tinkering with a Kel-Tec, I could send them a bag of parts with a note saying “OOPS”, they would reassemble it free, return it at their expense and it would still be in warranty. Kel-Tec makes a $220 pistol. Those that don’t like to clean, lube and possibly tinker, should spend double the money for a different gun.

I'm glad you're happy that having to tweak your Kel-Tecs has furthered your gun knowledge, but like NCHornet pointed out, we tend to forget about people that buy a pistol for self defense and don't anticipate having to go to lengths to make the gun fully reliable. If what you say is true, then Kel-Tec should market their pistols as unfinished with a big "Buyer Beware: This pistol may not be fully reliable from the factory" label on the website and box. Somehow I don't see them rushing to do that. I will maintain that if you get a reliable Kel-Tec from the factory, it's a good buy considering the combination of price, size, and weight...but I under no circumstances agree with the fact that many of them have to be tinkered with in order to guarantee reliable operation should be considered a bonus because it gives people the opportunity to become more familiar with the intricacies of firearm operation. People stake their lives on these guns! A lot more of them should be reliable from the factory. If you had to pull your newly purchased Kel-Tec in a SD situation and it malfunctioned, would you still forgive its flaws?

 

[alamo]

I think NCHornet and quickcanary and going a bit overboard. I know NCHornet doesn't own a KT but he shows up at every KT thread to trash them and promote the Guardian. Fine, there's been folks like him on KT threads for years. Have at it.

I've long since come to the conclusion that small, lightweight pistols need more care, attention and testing than larger, heavier pistols. There's just not as much margin for error.

I've read a number of times in the past year of triggers on NAA Guardians snapping in half, magazine release problems and various other problems. I've witnessed a few at the shooting range malfunctioning. You don't see many of these problems posted on forums because so few of them are made.

In 2005, less than 2,000 Guardian .32s and .380s were made. KT made over 50,000 .32s and .380s that year. The Guardian is a fine pistol but it is not immune from difficulties.

I've read extensively of the problems with polymer Kahrs and the Rohrbaugh. Again, these are fine pistols but many have needed some tweaking or a trip to the factory for full reliability. I would have no problem owing either of these pistols and may one day.

Seecamp makes fine pistols too. I used to own one 8-9 years ago. It was completely unreliable after 200 rounds of Silvertips over 4 range sessions with a good cleaning and lube between sessions. I could have probably gotten it working with what I know today but not then.

I've owned lots of pocket pistols - one Seecamp .32, two Autauga .32s (100% reliable btw), 2 P-32s and 2 P-3ATs. I still own all of the Autuagas and Kel-Tecs. All of them are very reliable. Two of the Kel-Tecs needed a bit of breaking in initially but are fine now.

 

[Wilson 17&26]

Kel-Tec should market their pistols as unfinished with a big "Buyer Beware: This pistol may not be fully reliable from the factory" label on the website and box. Somehow I don't see them rushing to do that.

Then you best have all arms manufactures put such a warning on ever gun sold as I know of no manufacture that makes perfect guns. It sure can’t be a Glock as we all know of Kabooms, barrel recalls, cracked grips, etc. and it can’t be a Kimber so money doesn’t make a flawless pistol. If you know of an arms manufacture that doesn’t have guns with failures please let me know, so I can buy one.

 

[dralarms]

Ok, I'll step in. Call Keltec, They will send you a new trigger bar. They had some that would bend after so many rounds. It's a piece of cake to change it out.

My wife had her's do the same thing, they send me 2 replacements.

Sure KT's are less expensive but they are a nice little firearm for what they are designed for.

If you don't want to deal with it, PM me with a price you want for it. If we can work out something I'll buy it and repair it myself.

 

[halvey]

So, how much would a 100% reliable P3AT be worth with extra mag, pocket holster and 2k of ammo?

 

[Wilson 17&26]

how much would a 100% reliable P3AT be worth

About 97-98% of current production P-3ATs work fine out of the box with only cleaning and lube. NIB P-3ATs can be purchased for $220-$230 including shipping to your local FFL (mine charges $10 for transfers). I usually pay about 50¢ on the dollar for used, not abused, guns, if you are really looking for a price starting point.

 

[halvey]

I usually pay about 50¢ on the dollar for used, not abused, guns, if you are really looking for a price starting point.

You must deal with a lot of stupid people. Are you Gander Mountian or Cabela's?

50%. Yup, I see lots of Glocks, Kimbers and SIGS all over the classifieds for $250.

About 97-98% of current production P-3ATs work fine out of the box with only cleaning and lube.

you forgot to add "if you never shoot them."

 

[HisSoldier]

I can't believe anyone would stick up for KT's. They are a great gun in concept but totally unreliable in fact, the P3AT anyway. If you are packing it as a backup just maybe it's acceptable, unless you choose some other plastic and aluminum gun for your primary, but then it's hard to imagine getting two tries to defend yourself with broken guns in the same emergency. I typically take all my handguns apart for the fun of it, but the Kel-Tec I took apart twice to repair design faults.

 

[ZeSpectre]

but the Kel-Tec I took apart twice to repair design faults

Once for a design fault and twice for production faults. <sigh>.

 

[mavracer]

which is why I'm glad I already had a seecamp.when Kel-tecs were introduced because I'm afraid I would have been too temted by the price of keltecs.I would dump the kel-tec (send to factory first) and get a seecamp.

 

[JohnBT]

"I can't believe anyone would stick up for KT's. They are a great gun in concept but totally unreliable in fact, "

Totally unreliable? Get serious. There are tens of thousands of happy owners out here. A hundred and some thousand maybe. My old P-32 is 12xxx.

I like my Rohrbaugh too. Bought it used earlier this year and it's been just fine.

John

 

[JohnKSa]

Unless a person own stock in all the commercial carriers, why would anyone choose to spend $50 shipping a handgun back to the manufacture, which is an “other than”. The law doesn’t require you disclose you are shipping a handgun when shipping via commercial carrier to an “other than”, so I ship them as machine parts, which they are.

To be fair to those who may take your advice as gospel, you should point out that you and the BATF differ on the interpretation of this law.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm

"A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. "​

That lets anyone who thinks they have more credibility in a Federal Court than the BATF do whatever they want while those who think the BATF might win the argument can avoid problems by notifying the carrier that the shipment contains a firearm.

 

[alamo]

Here's the actual wording from the statute:


(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or
cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for
transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to
persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers,
licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other
container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without
written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is
being transported or shipped

I'm not sure how this law is being interpreted or enforced but it seems to say you must give notice if you are shipping to someone other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, etc. This is different than what the ATF FAQ says.

And then there is this:

(2) It shall be unlawful for any common or contract carrier to
deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without
obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of
the package or other container in which there is a firearm.


They can't tell if it is a firearm if nobody tells them.

 

[Wilson 17&26]

Oops!

 

[Wilson 17&26]

To be fair to those who may take your advice as gospel, you should point out that you and the BATF differ on the interpretation of this law.

You failed to give the entire answer to question. Please note the last line.
“(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]’’

Now if you actually go to the laws sighted by the BATF you will find more detailed answers. Pull up ATF web page http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/gca.htm and you will find § 922 (e) (note the key words other than) . The entire ATF web page is interesting but the pionts pertaining to this discussion can be found here http://1bad69.com/keltec/shipping.htm . There is also a link to a letter from the ATF acknowledging that federal law permits shipping via commercial carrier from an unlicensed individual to an FFL or Licensed Manufacture.

 

[Rex B]

I have 3 Keltecs right now that are new & unfired:

P3AT
P11
SU16A

I plan to wring 'em out Sunday.
Taking bets on numbers of failures/100 rnds

 

[Johnny Guest]

Thread Veer

Let's keep it on topic, friends.

If you want to discuss the procedures for shipping firearms to the factory for service or repair, please start an appropriate thread. No more in this one, huh?

Johnny

 

[redman900]

thats the reason I gave up mine! would not trust it ever again. nomatter what anybody says. their Q.C. is only after the fact.

 

[gudel]

what do you expect from a cheap gun? I think you keep your hopes high as the stars with this pistol.

 

[ZeSpectre]

what do you expect from a cheap gun?

A certain baseline of quality. Especially given all the recommendations I had read beforehand.

 

[akanotken]

Selling point with me is the lightness. Just so easy to pick up my keltec and slip it in my pocket. I've got a p32 that is has passed my reliability hurdle, and it's always in my pocket if I'm carrying. Sometimes by itself, sometimes with a bigger friend on my side. I've got a P3AT that I've got 50 rounds thru, but currently I believe in the .32 over the .380 as a mousegun caliber, so the .380 is waiting for me to change my mind (happens regularly) or for me to throw it into some trade proposal.

For all of those bashing the keltec's, I offer you this question. What if KT took these boards seriously, abandoned the ultra light niche for something heavier and less likely to wear? Now it's competing with a half dozen other offerings.

What if it raised costs on it's QC? All of the potential customers who were on the edge of thier budget are now purchasing bryco's and jennings ..... Have you done them any favors?

You can extend this argument all the way up to the point that the only pistols on the market are handfit, 100% reliable guns that many can't afford ...

If you don't want one, fine. But getting an good working sample isn't hard to do. And once you've proven to yourself you are good to go. Shoot a mag occasionally to keep yourself in tune with the gun, then worry yourself with the real problem of Keltec's.

More keltec owners have been guilty of forgetting that they are carrying than any other brand of pistol ....

 

[The Amigo]

Why do I carry a Keltec

1. Im not rich.
2. Its light.
3. Its customer service is 5 stars.
4. They work everytime I pull the trigger.
5. The round goes where I point it to.

You can dream all you want and wish that expensive gun you paid $1000 buck for will go bang. But I can attest that all mechanical things have their flaws and if I can buy 3 keltecs for the price of one overrated gun then so be it

I own a p3at and a pf9 I have yet to find any other guns in this small envelope to match these without having to pay 900-1000 bucks.
my 2c.

 

[Geno]

Many of the deputies carry the P3AT both as an on-duty back-up, ad as an off-duty back-up. Mine has been great...wouldn't want to sell it.

 

[halfacop]

I HAD a KT in .40

I no longer have it due to the fact that it was a POS.

When I did send it back to the factory for the fluff and buff treatment it came back dressed up with a bunch of **** on it that I didn't want (Trigger Shoe, belt clip etc.) and still didn't feed reliable enough for me to keep it around.

Put a lemon in a dress and its just a good looking lemon!

I'll stick with my, flawless through hundreds of rounds during quals, KAHR PM9!