RCBS Case Feeder...they said it can't be done

[GW Staar]

This is what happens when work slows down....I get to tinkering again.



Because the RCBS Pro 2000 has a lot going on on the left side of the press, the company hasn't offered a case feeder. Cases, bullets, primers all feed there, and finished rounds eject there as well. The APS primer system is the straw the broke the proverbial camel's back, it was just flat in the way. But I agree with RCBS....APS is worth it, and a bullet feeder...I have.

Anyway, I don't really need a case feeder, but hey....they told me no.... That just means a challenge to conquer. The first thing I realized is that there is no straight line available to feed anything. So I had to make a curved ramp and an articulated push stick. Think two coupled train cars. (picture below)



Anyway the way to to shell plate is figured out....more later...maybe...
I like the ease of inserting the cases already...even manual. (reminds me of the $28 Bullet feeder) BTW, yes the finished rounds still make it fine to the out bin.

Video so far: (click the picture below)

 

[Striker Fired]

Now with an arm attached to a cam with an eccentric follower off the ram you could get a slide bar to be springloaded will grab a case and another rotating follower will push the case in automatically.Follow that and you can have it feeding without your input.

Ya, I don't follow either,but it works pretty good as it is. Where there's a will,there's a way.

 

[GT1]

Ya, I don't follow either

Made me laugh anyway.

I had been staring at the video trying to see how to actuate that without going all Rube Goldberg.

Looks pretty good so far.

 

[GW Staar]

Made me laugh too! You know what the best example of Rube Goldberg is....The Dillon 650. Damn there's a lot of moving gizmos going on. Of course I haven't seen a 1050 work in person. Then there's the Ponsness Warren power drive a few people have added to it.

It's only too obvious that I've done the easy part....making it feed the shell plate with only a hand on the press handle, is a much tougher problem. I have to make motion in 3 directions at once because of the angles.....gave me a headache today so I'm giving it a rest....I'll dream about it tonight for sure (hope it's not a nightmare). As for a collator...no need to reinvent that...the Dillon one will work perfect for anybody with the will and the cash. Don't know if I will tho....geeze it'll look like a care bears cartoon.....RCBS green, Hornady red, Forster yellow, and cute baby blue.

One thing I didn't mention in my first post, is that the case drop and pushing mechanism works for about anything. The video is of .40S&W, but I've tested 9mm, 45acp, .357mag, .223, and 308 and they all feed. The only change is the part I drop in with the tube attached, and even so, I've only made 4. One does .45 & .40, one does, 9mm, .357/.38 and the other two do the rifle. Only two tube sizes, but cutouts for the cases vary. The basic part is just a PVC threaded reducer from 1" to 1/2"...the 1/2" tubing fits inside (drilled 1/16 wider for the 9/16 tubing)

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I have to hand it to you. You are the most creative pro2000 user I have ever seen or heard of!

Just neat!

 

[GW Staar]

Or the most bored one....I'm nearly out of bullets, the weather is too crappy to shoot and work is.....s-l-o-w-w-w.

I'm not proud though...if anybody has any brilliant ideas on auto-locomating this thing, that they are willing to share...I'll gladly unashamedly copy.
You listening jmorris?

Dang!....now its snowing hard....back to the garage before I start getting grumpy....to old to learn to ski.

 

[Striker Fired]

I don't have a Pro 2000 to look at ,so would you be willing to take some good pics of the linkage below and the ram setup ect.. I work in a machine shop as a machinist and have access to some really good equipement including a laser cutter that will cut anything I can draw up on Autocad or Solid Works .Maybe I could come up with something, PM them or I can give you my email.

 

[jmorris]

I'm not proud though...if anybody has any brilliant ideas on auto-locomating this thing, that they are willing to share...I'll gladly unashamedly copy.
You listening jmorris?

Well, I have only built one case feeder myself, because it was concluded that it couldn't be done. I never finished it out but did make if functional as a proof of concept.

if you really want to make it a contraption worthy of Rube Goldberg’s admiration go find an old power door lock solenoid and mount a limit switch on your press somehow.








This one is a video

 

[GW Staar]

Well, I have only built one case feeder myself, because it was concluded that it couldn't be done. I never finished it out but did make if functional as a proof of concept.

if you really want to make it a contraption worthy of Rube Goldberg’s admiration go find an old power door lock solenoid and mount a limit switch on your press somehow.

I've watched (and studied) your video 20 times or more the last several months. Cool factor = 10! But you had one big thing going for you that I don't....the ability to get your bullet stack in range of the throw length of the solenoid. I would need a small solenoid with a 3" throw. Can't find one. The maximum throw I can find is 2" and they are too big for this app. I was playing with the idea to use a rotary solenoid, that could be placed below the push bar....IOW....the farther away the solenoid the more throw you get,but also the more torque is required. Doubt it would work. More expensive to even try it.

So I figure I'm left with mechanical levers and/or slides as used by the progressive manufacturers. But where to put them in the limited space is the headache maker. I found a place to mount a cam that would pivot next to the ram. That could provide me with the 3" as long as I'm willing to use a small pulley and cable to change directions. (that will increase the Rube Goldberg effect for sure...I was hoping to keep it more RCBS Pro2000 simple) We'll see. I'll be living on aspirin for a few days before I admit defeat and be contented with the human solenoid I have now. But maybe I'm missing something. (that's why design teams are "teams")

Got to order some more clear tubing....I will keep this contraption. Automated or not I'm pleased. It is way faster than manual case insertion.

Yet I think the real point of this is not speed, but allowing for fewer things for the brain to do, when the important thing for it to do is to simply watch the powder level and component supply.

 

[GW Staar]

I don't have a Pro 2000 to look at ,so would you be willing to take some good pics of the linkage below and the ram setup ect.. I work in a machine shop as a machinist and have access to some really good equipement including a laser cutter that will cut anything I can draw up on Autocad or Solid Works .Maybe I could come up with something, PM them or I can give you my email.

I should have known you were a professional. I will post pictures of what I think you want in THIS post later today. (no comments about my wrecked garage. When I get on a project like this....nothing gets put up until I'm finished. Unfortunately this is the third project this month....with no clean up. When I did a little reloading this month, I just cleared off the bench for a few days. Fortunately, this is my space so my wife only raises her eyebrows.

I use Autocad too! Bigger scale....my last design was a grocery store....I try to stay away from 3-d...at that scale it takes way too much time that customers understandably are not willing to pay. In your field I'd say it is mandatory these days.

Here's the pictures I have of the Pro 2000. Click the thumb nail...then at PhotoBucket click <ALBUM> then click <View as Slide Show> Need something different, just holler. BTW, the black metal added that I referred to in one of the pictures, was added to maybe mount a cam or something to....there was an attachment point where it is screwed in. As you can see, with the out tray above, and spent primer tube in the way below, there aren't as many options.

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[jmorris]

Perfect double

 

[jmorris]

Many ways to change throws to make them longer or shorter.


How about foot control?

 

[GT1]

Even with a bell crank to change the throw ratio 3" is a long way. The whole contraption starts getting.....large.

The cable attached to the platform(?) and pulley system is an interesting idea. That will feed it, I would go with a return spring to pull the shuttle back over trying to cable loop the whole works, though. I'm sure it could be done, however.

For existing materials that won't break the bank look up radio controlled airplane linkages(I fly them. The pulleys for 'pull-pull' contol, cables, bell cranks etc, are all there, made small and high quality to take any loads you are dealing with here.)
Just rambling thoughts. I'm no machinist, but I have fiddled with a lot of similar things fabricating up ways to control the model planes.

You want something that will pull off quick and easy though, you don't want your press platform inaccessable when you need to get in there.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

GW, Your press is so clean. I am impressed at that. Mine has wear marks and some grease underneath it from my lubing it over the years. I was surprised at how nice yours looked.

I feel shamed.

I need to go clean my Pro2000.....

 

[GW Staar]

Many ways to change throws to make them longer or shorter.

How about foot control?

That's certainly an option, but it sure limits where you stand or sit. I'd prefer to do it with just the press handle......if it's possible of course. The picture demos the rotary concept well....how small degrees of turn can translate to lots of lineal distance. It also demonstrates that if you applied a little resistance to the mallet (at the mallet), it would take a lot of torque to over come it.

Even with a bell crank to change the throw ratio 3" is a long way. The whole contraption starts getting.....large.

The cable attached to the platform(?) and pulley system is an interesting idea. That will feed it, I would go with a return spring to pull the shuttle back over trying to cable loop the whole works, though. I'm sure it could be done, however.

For existing materials that won't break the bank look up radio controlled airplane linkages(I fly them. The pulleys for 'pull-pull' contol, cables, bell cranks etc, are all there, made small and high quality to take any loads you are dealing with here.)
Just rambling thoughts. I'm no machinist, but I have fiddled with a lot of similar things fabricating up ways to control the model planes.

You want something that will pull off quick and easy though, you don't want your press platform inaccessable when you need to get in there.

GT1, thanks for the post! Food for thought. Accessibility is most important. I will check out the RC hobby sources......got a favorite RC watering hole you suggest I look at first? and please explain Pull-Pull.

 

[GW Staar]

GW, Your press is so clean. I am impressed at that. Mine has wear marks and some grease underneath it from my lubing it over the years. I was surprised at how nice yours looked.

I feel shamed.

I need to go clean my Pro2000.....

Dang Pete, that's what I keep telling everybody! You're the one with all the experience, not me......I'm too busy working 60 hours then playing, and tinkering with the press to get your experience....OR your "experienced" press! Not to mention, I don't have the funds to buy a thousand dollars worth of components to get that experience either! (uh, ok I'm not working a whole lot at the moment....thanks to Obama and his train wreck change....that's why I have so much time to screw around with this little project. But it was 60 hours a week last month! Feast or Famine.)

 

[GT1]

and please explain Pull-Pull.

Forgive me. Many linkages used to actuate things use a single rod(usually solid metal, phenolic, or composite like carbon fiber or fiberglass) with ball or heim joints, that is a push-pull linkage. A pull-pull linkage uses a seperate linkage to pull in each direction or motion of movement desired. It is common to use cables and pulleys in such a set up as they are strong, don't stretch, while being light and very precise.

This is from my R/C experience perspective. As things get bigger the engineering changes because one isn't confined, and weight and size might not be as important. Still common in light boats and light aircraft though.

A list of R/C websites:
http://www.rcsoaring.com/manuf.shtml

A place like tower hobby might be a good place to start looking, it is one of my favorites.

 

[jmorris]

What about a solenoid coil that you can pass through.

I used something similar to operate a trap door on the device below. You would then make the rod(s) whatever length you need and add stops. Click on the photo to play the video.

 

[GT1]

That's pretty neat, like a doorbell coil. That buzzing might get annoying though.

 

[GW Staar]

What about a solenoid coil that you can pass through.

That sounds promising. Can you control the speed the rod travels without electronics? Too fast and it will throw the case across my bench. Where do you buy such things, including the rods, connectors, etc.

I even thought about using, servos, or stepper motors, rack and pinion gears and more, but controlling those things requires an education in programing microcontrollers I don't have. There was no such thing as microcontrollers when I went to collage. I learned computers the hard way, punch cards, Fortran, and Cobol. I kept up for a while, but C++ is out of my league. I can build a Pcb board of somebody elses design, but I can't design a circuit for a micro-controller nor program it. That's why I farmed out the electronics on my Primer counter. That turned out perfect & inexpensive...one of the better decisions I've made lately.

A place like tower hobby might be a good place to start looking, it is one of my favorites.

I've been surfing the hobby and robotic areas of the internet....checked out Tower hobbies. The only problem at Tower is finding what you need. That place is tough to navigate if you don't know what your looking for.

 

[GT1]

It's kind of tough because you don't really know what you are looking for until you see it.

Try Dubro. They are a major player in R/C hardware.

http://shop.dubro.com/products/category/101.0.1.1.5161.0.0.0.0

They have a selection of bell cranks and motion transfer linkage parts, pull-pull systems etc. Check the imaac and large scale stuff, also. It might not all be in one place.

 

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

If you're looking for simple, my thought is you should look at sheet metal cams very similar to the ones use for indexing on the Pro 2000. You could even add a roller on your shell plate carrier that will ride on the cams. Then mount the cams in the same bolt holes you have the feeder arm mounted to.

As an alternative, look at bent rod type cams like the Hornady LnL uses. Again, could mount the rods to a sheet metal bracket to the same two bolt holes you have the basic feeder mechanism mounted to.

In either case, the feeder mechanism "roller" will ride on the cams and move in and out as the press goes up and down. This is the basic mechanism for the Hornady and Dillon mechanism and is simple and affordable to manufacture. Toughest part will be figuring out the in and out travel distances and angles to set the cams to meet that in and out travel requirement.

Just a couple thoughts.

 

[jmorris]

Granger has the solenoid above.

Power door locks mentioned before use worm gear/rack to convert rotation to linear travel.

 

[cfullgraf]

I would need a small solenoid with a 3" throw. Can't find one. The maximum throw I can find is 2" and they are too big for this app.

Have you looked into pneumatics in place of the solenoid?

Great design and concept.

 

[GW Staar]

Try Dubro. They are a major player in R/C hardware.
http://shop.dubro.com/products/category/101.0.1.1.5161.0.0.0.0 They have a selection of bell cranks and motion transfer linkage parts, pull-pull systems etc. Check the imaac and large scale stuff, also. It might not all be in one place.

Dubro was good....several possibilities there. Good sources of rods, cables and pivot connectors! Thanks!

If you're looking for simple, my thought is you should look at sheet metal cams very similar to the ones use for indexing on the Pro 2000.
Simple is good...cams could work if I can find room.

You could even add a roller on your shell plate carrier that will ride on the cams. Then mount the cams in the same bolt holes you have the feeder arm mounted to.

Hmmm, trying to wrap my brain around that one:...built-in computer is slow.. One thing I'm trying NOT to do is modify factory press parts. Up to now I've relied on existing threaded holes supplied by RCBS.

As an alternative, look at bent rod type cams like the Hornady LnL uses. Again, could mount the rods to a sheet metal bracket to the same two bolt holes you have the basic feeder mechanism mounted to.

Yup, that was looked at first. The problem to solve with that method is where to put it. Lee, Dillon, Hornady have a spot on the SIDE of the press out of the way. In front mounted to the front bolts puts the rods in the way of the primer mechanism.

In either case, the feeder mechanism "roller" will ride on the cams and move in and out as the press goes up and down. This is the basic mechanism for the Hornady and Dillon mechanism and is simple and affordable to manufacture. Toughest part will be figuring out the in and out travel distances and angles to set the cams to meet that in and out travel requirement. Normally yes, the toughest part, but not as tough as finding room for it.

Just a couple thoughts.

Thanks for the input. Will reexamine those ideas!

Granger has the solenoid above.

Power door locks mentioned before use worm gear/rack to convert rotation to linear travel.

jmorris, I looked up the coil, it has the following description:

Solenoid Coil, Rating 24 VDC, 22 Millimeters Coil for 1/8 Inch Valves, For Alpha Series Valves, Miniature

Am I to understand that the rod has to be 22 millimeter or 1/8" Dia.? Where would I buy that? (Dumb...hand holding required )

I haven't seen the door locks you refer to.....next internet search....

Have you looked into pneumatics in place of the solenoid?

Great design and concept.

Thanks! No, I haven't looked at pneumatics, yet. The only pneumatics I'm familiar with is door closers, air compressors and pneumatic tools. Got any additional info, a link maybe???

Wow! I appreciate all the help...Great design team! Thanks!