RCBS spacer ring ?

[joneb]

I have RCBS carbide dies for .38 spl/.357 mag and .44 spl/.44 mag. I have given advise on reloading forums that the spacer ring is only used when the dies are adjusted for the Special cartridge length and then switched to reload the magnum cartridge, the spacer ring compensates for the case length difference and requires less adjustments between spl and mag case lengths, and that it is only used for case mouth belling and bullet seating.
So my question is, I have never use the spacer when sizing Magnum brass, only for case mouth belling and bullet seating, Can the spacer be used when sizing ? and what are the consequences ?

 

[Bullet]

Can the spacer be used when sizing ?

NO
The spacer raises the die so you won’t be able to size the case fully.

 

[joneb]

The spacer raises the die so you won’t be able to size the case fully.

Well duh...
What I am trying get at here is... has anyone tried to partially firer form brass to a particular revolver ?

 

[Bullet]

What I am trying get at here is... has anyone tried to partially firer form brass to a particular revolver ?

Is this the real question or are you going to make up another?

 

[joneb]

So my question is, Can the spacer be used when sizing ? and what are the consequences ?

 

[Walkalong]

Don't worry jibjab, it's just Bullet being Bullet, arguementitive.

Yea, you could use the spacer, although obviously that is not its purpose. It would leave the rear a tighter fit in the chamber, but not necessarily a straighter fit, as brass does not always expand evenly around its circumference.

I don't believe you will get any benefit from it. I full length size all pistol brass. A good expander and seater will give better results than anything if you are looking to help accuracy, if that is what your question is. AC

 

[Bullet]

Walkalong
You might try to leave out comments about me in your posts.

 

[joneb]

Sorry Bullet,
My reply to your first post was disrespectful.

Thanks Walkalong,
I know this is a strange question, but it always seems like some people will try just about anything to improve accuracy I wanted to know the down sides, and if there could be any benefits.

 

[Walkalong]

Anything reasonable is worth trying once. I seem to remember an article long ago where it was tried and found to not make any difference, but I could be remembering wrong.

 

[brickeyee]

If you use a carbide .38/.357 die your cases will end up withthe 'hourglass' shape anyway.
The carbide ring is beveled and cannot reach the very base of the case.
I routinely used to partially size .38 specials for bullseye.
Just enough to hold a new 148 HBWC nicely.

 

[rcmodel]

Might want to check all six unsized empties and see if they will all go back in all the holes in the cylinder.

Sometimes, on some guns, after expanding at Magnum pressure, they won't.

That's one of the reasons for full-length sizing them all.

rcmodel

 

[joneb]

Might want to check all six unsized empties and see if they will all go back in all the holes in the cylinder.

I tried a few .357 and .38spl cases sized with 1,2,and 3 spacers they all chambered fine, they look like .44-40 cases. I wonder if .38spl would shoot any better out my .357 partially sized ? Would the extra case volume make difference ? I wonder if shell extraction would become difficult.

 

[rcmodel]

Case volume? No, not that you could notice anyway.

Extraction? No, I doubt there would be any difference there.

Accuracy? I'd have to see proof, and so far I haven't.

The thing is, we would assume that a partially or neck sized revolver case would hold the bullet in perfect alignment with the chamber throat.
It might, or it might not.

If every case were made exactly perfect, with Nana-Natsazz precision thickness all the way around, it would.

But if, as is more likely, one side of the case is slightly thinner then the other side, the neck-sizing will end up centering the bullet slightly off center with the unsized portion of the case.

The only way to tell would be to spin them under a dial indicator fixture and see if they are perfectly centered, or not.

If they are slightly off-center in the case, every chamber would have to be loaded with the off-center bullet orientated in the same direction to get uniformity of every load in the cylinder.

On the other hand, a full-length sized case is slightly loose in the chamber, but every one of them is laying on the bottom of the chamber when it goes off.
So every bullet starts out in the exact same relationship to the gun.

Might make an interesting science project for someone with a Ransom Rest to test it.

rcmodel

 

[joneb]

I routinely used to partially size .38 specials for bullseye.
Just enough to hold a new 148 HBWC nicely.

Thanks Brickeyee, so did you notice a difference in accuracy with the partially sized brass loads ?

Thanks for your insight rc.

I may load a batch of 25rnds full sized and 25 partially sized, and see what happens.

 

[CBS220]

The real question is whether or not you can actually shoot to that level of precision.

I know I can't.

 

[joneb]

The real question is whether or not you can actually shoot to that level of precision.

Might make an interesting science project for someone with a Ransom Rest to test it.

I agree.

I don't have a rest but if they shoot like this at 20 yds I'll know I'm on to something.

Well this is wishful thinking, I don't think there would be much benefit with a .358 dia bullet and my sizing die, as pointed out the RCBS carbide sizer won't fully size to begin with, so any improvement may be with .357 dia bullets.
Walkalong and rcmodel pointed out inconsistencies with brass, but wouldn't this have the same effect with fully sized brass ?

 

[Walkalong]

When you fire revolver brass sometimes you will see where it expands more on one side than the other due to case wall differences. It is out of round and will not lay in the chamber particularly straight. If you size that same brass it will be straight on the outside again so it will lay straighter in the chamber.

Post #6

It would leave the rear a tighter fit in the chamber, but not necessarily a straighter fit, as brass does not always expand evenly around its circumference.

Where we want the tight straight fit is up front where the bullet is lining up with the bore, or in this case, the cylinder throats, which are hopefully lined up well with the bore.

 

[brickeyee]

In a tight revolver for bullseye you can see the difference, especially at the 50 yard line.

It does take a LOT of practice though.
I used to compete at state level before medical problems occurred.
Over 2600 was not uncommon.

 

[Walkalong]

In a tight revolver for bullseye you can see the difference, especially at the 50 yard line.

Which way? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[rcmodel]

As in all things Bullseye Pistol related, if you think it helps, it helps.

We had one guy on our AMU team who would go into slump a couple times a year. He would bring his match guns into the shop and complain of a loose slide here, bad trigger there, etc.

So, I would take his guns back in the shop, pound on my bench vice with a ballpeen hammer, and scrape on my tool chest drawer with a big old file for 30 minutes.

Then go back out front and give him his guns back.

He would try the triggers, get a big huge grin on his face, and go out and start shooting high 2600 scores again!

rcmodel

 

[joneb]

Is this the real question or are you going to make up another?

This is a valid question. I had a thought that I did not fully comprehend so before the thought was lost in a pile of other thoughts I gave it to my fellow reloaders which is a powerful resource
Thank you

 

[joneb]

I loaded up 50rnds of .38spl.(the brass was previously fired from a S&W M10-5 w/a 6" barrel) the load was 158gr LSWC(Silver State bullets).3574" dia(this bullet has not shot accurately in my 38/357 revolvers, but at less than 1.1K fps there has been no lead fowling) the charge was 4.0gr of Trail Boss w/WSP primers, I loaded 25rnds full sized(FS) and 25 partially sized(PS)(using 3 x1.2"spacers)
Accuracy(C to C) of the PS loads in the M-10 was 2.75"@20yds x6, and 1.75" x6 for the FS loads.
Accuracy from a Ruger Security Six 2.75" barrel was PS 4.25" @20yds x6, and 2.0" for FS
I loaded 12rnds of .357 mag. 158gr XTP-HP with 13.4gr of AA#9 and WSP PS, @ 20yds 6rnds grouped 2", with this load and full sized brass I get closer to 1.5"
All of the partially sized loads chambered and extracted well, I did not expect to see such poor accuracy with the POS loads

 

[Sunray]

The spacer ring is to allow you to use the die sets that are stamped .38/.357 for both cartridges. It's sole purpose is indeed to make up the 1/10" difference in case length and it's used for all three dies. You still have to set up the dies when changing cartridges though.

 

[Dumpster Baby]

I solved this dilemma by acquiring a second set of dies. One set for .357 and one set for .38 Special. This way the trim length for each caliber can be adjusted for the type of brass I have in that caliber - does it run "short" or not, etc. The bullet seating punch and crimping adjustment doesn't have to be fiddled with until changing bullet styles.

There's all kinds of used die sets floating around on eBay and Gunbroker.

 

[phil218b]

JibJab
If I am reading right you want to make 38 special shoot better in a 357 chamber? Remember that no matter what you do, you are free bore more distance in the chamber with a shorter cartridge. I could be wrong but I am unaware of any firearm company that would machine a cylinder to match the barrel alignment precisely, thus the dreaded forcing cone grabs the flopping projectile and funnels it into the barrel. The extra distance in a 357 chamber, with a 38 special will always let the bullet flop a little farther before hitting the funnel.