Re barreling a post '64 Winchester 70

[Qball16]

Hello again everyone!

My last thread was dealing with whether I wanted to build a 6.8 SPC AR for deer hunting or go with a lightweight bolt in a more traditional deer cartridge. I just realized that I have a third way. My first gun, the one that started me on this journey, and handloading and the rest of it, is a '67 Winchester 670 in .225 Winchester. I inherited the rifle from my grandfather who supposedly bought it for deer hunting in Nevada. So the gun has significant sentimental value to me.
The obsolete chambering forced me to learn how to load, what a gift that has been! I'm now reloading 5 different cartridges and really enjoy the hobby. I have literally never shot a commercial load in any gun that I own, aside from the rimfires. Anyway, finding .225 brass is no walk in the park. They also don't last for many reloadings at full pressure. I think I'm ready to jump ship.
So the 670 is basically a stripped down version of the 70 with a simpler two position safety and cheaper furniture. It has a model 70 action aside from the safety. One funny thing about the 670 is that they used long actions for all chamberings. So it has a long action with a .473 bolt face. I can pretty much re-barrel to anything with that bolt face I guess.
I considered using the gun as-is for deer hunting, It's got a a good deal more power than a .223, but I'd really like to get away from the brass famine, so sizing up would just make good sense. It's also a 1-14 twist so I am pretty limited to bullets in the 50-55gr range. I know that some of you would say keep it as is, especially since it's a family heirloom in a unique, if not obsolete chambering. I posit that the gun would possibly be more special if I actually used it for hunting, not just a range gun.
The last option is a re-bore. This way I can keep the gun with its original barrel but in a new caliber. I assume that my chamber options would be more limited by the strength of the .225 chamber and barrel. I know that many feel this is a waste of time and money, but for the sentimental value, could be worth while.

If you were in my position, What would you do? Re-Barrel, re-chamber, leave as is?

I just started two threads asking for a lot of info from you all, I apologize. I pledge to start contributing to other's threads when I have insight from here on out.

 

[sage5907]

You have an interesting situation and it has more than one possibility. First, the 225 Winchester has a .4730 bolt face which would let you change barrels without any revision to the bolt face. Either the 243 Winchester or 308 Winchester has the same bolt face diameter so it would be possible to find a used Winchester 70 barrel from about the same manufacturing date and simply change the barrel. A used post 64 barrel in excellent condition could be purchased from either eBay or GunBroker for about $100. You would probably have to watch those auctions for several weeks to find the barrel. It would have to be installed and headspaced by a competent gunsmith so it would be best to find the gunsmith and talk to him before beginning the project. The gunsmith fee should also be less than $100. I don't think the Winchester 670 would be worth the cost of a new barrel which would be greater than $500. Before I would buy a new barrel I would simply trade the rifle at a gunshop for a similar 243 or 308.

 

[LoonWulf]

I think I'd either leave it alone or I'd rebarel it to another round that required no other modifications. Id then keep the original barrel so it could be reinstalled if so desired.

I've never messed with a 225 so I'm unsure as to what work the the magazine or action would be required for other cartridges.

 

[Qball16]

Sage, I like of idea of doing it on the cheap. I'll start trolling the sites. LoonWulf, I wondered if the blind mag was cartridge specific myself. I'll do some measuring.

 

[Steve S.]

It Is a hard thing to advise another on an heirloom; I sometimes hunt with the older designs but they were purchased, not inherited. I like the older stuff the way it is so I leave mine as is - even if extra cost is involved for shooting the things. One man's opinion, leave it as he hunted with it and take it out in the woods once in a while just to remember - that way it will get shot less. I would then buy another rifle of your choice to fill in the downtime of your heirloom. With that said, you will need to satisfy your wants in the end - good shooting.

 

[1stmarine]

The easiest and most affordable way is to rebarrel to a caliber that is compatible with your bolt / bolt face and magazine.
Also something that you can re-barrel yourself using a barrel nut that can be blued to match the contour of the shank so you don't need machining to adjust headspace nor a reamer to
ream a short chambered barrel.
But you will need a tool or someone to break the old barrel from the action and then a wrench that are not expensive or perhaps you can borrow.
I think I have a few model 70 barrels from rifles that I ended rebarreling to 7mm. I can check if you want. I rarely sell anything I upgrade.
Great rifle btw. never get rid of it.

 

[Qball16]

1st Marine, please do check for any spare barrels. I'd probably have a Smith put it on. I would attempt a savage, but probably not a Winchester. Let me know what you find.

Thanks

 

[1stmarine]

1st Marine, please do check for any spare barrels. I'd probably have a Smith put it on. I would attempt a savage, but probably not a Winchester. Let me know what you find.

Thanks

I will take a look. Will need a bit of digging in the caveman/ shop. I might have still a 308 and even something in 270, not sure.
Savage, Remington, Winchester, etc... same thing ...once you have a barrel nut there is no difference, right?. Just make sure you have the tool for the nut.

 

[Qball16]

I'd love a .308 since I already reload it. I'd pay a fair price for that, especially if it's post '64. I'm not sure about how rebarreling works on a Winchester. So you're saying that it could be set up like a RemAge? I thought they were just screwed on with no nut. I'd probably just have the barrel installed, no receiver mod. Am I missing the point?

 

[1stmarine]

The barrel nut doesn't change anything, it is just for your convenience.
And you should adapt the older barrel in case one day you want to swap for the season you
can do that too. All one does is cutting a few thousands from the shoulder and then the shoulder
is threaded for a barrel nut so the nut will allow for precise adjustment of the headspace.
It can be done in many rifles unless the threads have to be indexed.
So yes is like a remage for the winchester. Same thing.
I think I have a 308 I cannot promise. I will check thoroughly. I know there is a 270 something and a 338 and a few others probably.
As far as selling don't worry about cost. I am not doing this looking for any profit.

 

[Bart B.]

I've got a new, never used, 270 Win, 22" featherweight stainless steel barrel that came from a Model 70. It should clock in your 670 receiver very close to perfect. Interested in buying it?

Reboring then rifling barrels ends up with both ends belled to some degree. Rechambering may clean up the back end. You'll need to cut off an inch or more at the muzzle to get rid of the belled muzzle end.

 

[sage5907]

Bart B, remember that even though his rifle is a long action it currently has the short magazine box, short spring & follower and a blind magazine box. If he goes to a 243 or 308 he only has to change the barrel. If he goes to a 270 or 30-06 he has to change the barrel, magazine box, bolt stop, ejector, follower and spring. There's a longer H magazine box for sale on eBay for $35 but he would still have to find the follower and spring, bolt stop and ejector. On the other hand, a good gunsmith could easily install your barrel on his rifle and a new barrel would be hard to turn down. I really like the contour of a featherweight barrel but if his rifle has a standard weight barrel he would have extra space between the barrel and stock, especially in the chamber area. The last barrel change on a Model 70 only cost me $60 and it took my gunsmith less than an hour to do the job. I knew the headspace would be close before I took it in to be changed because I had measured the length of the tenon and calculated the distance from a no-go guage in the chamber to the bolt face. One final point, remember that although his rifle is a push feed, the new fine thread push feed barrels will not fit his rifle. His rifle barrel tenon has 16 threads per inch the same as the pre 64 Model 70..

 

[1stmarine]

@Qball16
Would you be kind enough to send me a pic or two of the bolt face?
Since there are many pos 64 rifles this is to discard anything that would need retrofitting due to the bolt used
for the rimmed round that is currently chambered for. These things might change and it depends if it was factory or
already a re-chambered rifle and how it was done.
If you can get a pick of the chamber area too then we can identify exactly what we have.

Examples...

Pre 64

Post 64

 

[1stmarine]

Hi @Qball16 ..

I checked all the barrels I have and found these on a couple of model 70 boxes with parts...

- One Post 64 barrel in 338 Win Mag. New take down. Never fired.
- One Post 64 barrel in 308 Winchester ulitmate shadow. Never fired. Nice blueing. Amazing barrel made by Browning.
- Three 7mm STW, two post 64 and never fired. Great bluing.
- One Pre 64 in 270 Weatherby Magnum. This one was fired but little use. I have the dies too.
- One Profiled barrel chambered in 308 wincheter but w/o threads. Chormoly, in the white. Probably a douglas or shilen form Midway at some point.

With the larger magnum cases you will need a larger bolt face. Not too hard to find nor expensive in gun-broker or other places online.
I am happy to thread the tenon and/or put a savage barrel nut so you could re-barrel yourself just like a savage. Will need to borrow a wrench.
The Pre64 can also be installed in a post 64 by cutting the difference form the shoulder and finishing the threads. The bluing will be intact.
In the lathe is a very simple task. Let me know if any of those will work for your project. They are just catching dust.

 

[Qball16]

Sorry, I've been working too many hours, just got back to this. 1stmarine, you have a good deal more gunsmithing knowledge than I. I'm going to take some photos for you to make sure that we find a good match. I think, as others do, that a standard short action cartridge would probably be the easiest option here. So the 308 ultimate shadow is sounding pretty good. Photos to come....

 

[Qball16]

Here is the bolt face with .225 rounds. Next image is a .308 head in the bolt, it seems to work. Next is a .308 round in the blind magazine. pardon me for not having all the terminology down, but the rounds are too long for the spacer piece or feed ramp type thing at the front. The last two are to give you an idea of the barrel contour. Pretty standard sporter.

 

[lobo9er]

great thread Qball16 welcome to THR this a great community, I think you will enjoy it.

 

[Bart B.]

Bart B, remember that even though his rifle is a long action it currently has the short magazine box, short spring & follower and a blind magazine box.

I knew that, but thanks anyway for alerting the OP about that. I've changed M670's to long cartridges by replacing those parts. Figured the OP probably knew that.

 

[sage5907]

Bart B, even though I addressed that comment to you it was my way of alerting the OP and intended for his eyes. You were correct to pick up on that. The magazine box that he has uses two baffles to handle the shorter 225 cartridge. I think his box will work for a 243 or 308 just by removing the front baffle. It would have to be cut off where it joins the front plate at the top of the box. Also, there is a 243/308 spring and follower for sale on eBay for $39.95 if he wants to change those parts. I mentioned above that there is a 270/30-06 "H" magazine box on eBay for about $35. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Qball16]

Thanks for the tips. And no, I wouldn't assume that I know about changing blind mag parts, etc.. Bart B, I don't think I can do the featherweight SS simply for aesthetic reasons. It would be two-tone and too skinny I think. Thanks for the offer.

 

[Qball16]

1stmarine, if you put a nut on, would I have to cut material from the stock to keep it floating? I assume that I would. Will the threads on the much newer Ultimate Shadow barrel be the same as the threads on the '67 .225? If I went with a nut, I'd just bring it to a Smith to get the .225 barrel removed and have its threads extended, etc, correct?

 

[1stmarine]

Thanks for the pics. This confirms it is a typical push feed.
This is a simple way to chamber rimmed cartridges cutting a bell around the tenon for extra cartrige support at the base.

If you take a peek inside the chamber area you might find something like this savage barrel...




I think at this point you could consider the 270 or any other long cartridge given that the rounds you want fit inside
your blind magazine that will need to be retrofitted depending on what you want.

You also have the opportunity to mill out the blind magazine and use a drop box or shallow detachable magazine.
Also to properly bed the action if this was not done before. This has an impact in accuracy and it is a simple job
anyone can do with some preparation and materials including pillars in the bedding job.
I you introduce a savage nut it could be done with a smooth nut to match the bluing as close as possible that might
also require removing a bit of material from the inlet that could be done along with the bedding job. The barrel nut will yield
perfect head-space that along with the bedding should make a very accurate rifle. This has been the case with
the modern 308 quality barrels and this wonderful action.
Also a recoil absorbing pad if heavy loads and more recoil is expected especially to shoot in the summer with light clothes.

I would consider some of those improvements but at the same time make sure they are done in a way that
is inconspicuous and it doesn't alter the original style, pedigree and cosmetics of the gun externally.
Since this was your grandfathers gun you might want to respect many external and cosmetic aspects of the
gun due to its sentimental value. These is just me personal take on this of course.

 

[1stmarine]

1stmarine, if you put a nut on, would I have to cut material from the stock to keep it floating? I assume that I would. Will the threads on the much newer Ultimate Shadow barrel be the same as the threads on the '67 .225? If I went with a nut, I'd just bring it to a Smith to get the .225 barrel removed and have its threads extended, etc, correct?

The shadow is an amazing barrel but you are right they are different threads. The good thing is the minor diameter is 1.005 so this means the tenon can be re threaded
for the 1"x16 tpi and at the same time extended for the barrel nut. Sorry I didn't explain that well before. Here you have options. either machine one smooth or simply use the
Ruger american nut that you have it blued. As I said if you can borrow the tools you can break the barrel from the action and the rest is easy but if you don't feel confortable
might want to take the whole thing to a smith. Also if you want the new threads and barrel nut I am happy to do that for you. The result will be the same, something you can install
with perfect headspace or later swap barrels between seasons/years if that is desired.

http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/ruge...r-american-barrel-nut-4140-1-x-16-2b-tpi.html

 

[LoonWulf]

Its awesome you guys are getting this project together. I second the idea of using a barrel nut, Ive got a rem700 that i keep wanting to mess with and when i do i think ill use the barrel nut system.

 

[Qball16]

Yes, it would be great to be able to go back to the .225 in spring. So if there wasn't a nut, headspace is determined only by how far it threads into the action? If I went the nut route, are there other barrels that would be swappable or would I just order them with the right threads and thread length for the nut? I've sanded inside the stock a bit but I think it still touches when it gets hot. I would certainly go the extra mile to pillar bed and free float the action and new barrel. I don't mind the trigger at lightest pull so I can leave that as is.