Reality in Strategies and Tactics
- Thread starter Jeff White
- Start date
- Status
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Training helps, but it's difficult to bring reality into training sometimes. A personal anecdote, if I might...
In my first force on force training event a few years back, we used our personal carry guns with marking rounds. The trainers were safe enough- everyone divested themselves of anything live, turned out pockets, got patted down/searched/weapon inspected three times by three different people, and went directly into a separate room away from all the live stuff (ammo, blades, sprays, everything) where the scenarios were to take place. Everything was set up, protective gear donned, and off we went.
It took me until the third iteration to pull the trigger on someone. Thirty plus years of DON'T took some getting over. Would it have gone that way on the street? I don't know, I don't think so. On the rare occasions when things have gotten gun-in-hand dicey in the real world, there seemed to be no more than the judicious level of restraint that kept me from doing anything foolish.
But still, it was an interesting lesson for me.
fwiw,
lpl
In my first force on force training event a few years back, we used our personal carry guns with marking rounds. The trainers were safe enough- everyone divested themselves of anything live, turned out pockets, got patted down/searched/weapon inspected three times by three different people, and went directly into a separate room away from all the live stuff (ammo, blades, sprays, everything) where the scenarios were to take place. Everything was set up, protective gear donned, and off we went.
It took me until the third iteration to pull the trigger on someone. Thirty plus years of DON'T took some getting over. Would it have gone that way on the street? I don't know, I don't think so. On the rare occasions when things have gotten gun-in-hand dicey in the real world, there seemed to be no more than the judicious level of restraint that kept me from doing anything foolish.
But still, it was an interesting lesson for me.
fwiw,
lpl
I've never had an issue with pulling a trigger in a FoF exercise, but they have all been conducted with a formal sterilization procedure with physical separation from live equipment. The signal to shoot was always internally generated based on interpretation of environmental cues. For me it was also my third exercise before I pulled the trigger, but not because of any reluctance on my part. The first exercise was a no-shoot exercise, and the second, while justified, did not provide me with an opportunity to shoot before a better option became available.
I would have an issue with it in an informal environment w/o appropriate safety measures. I also would have an issue with doing it if the scenario is not set up to justify it.
I would have an issue with it in an informal environment w/o appropriate safety measures. I also would have an issue with doing it if the scenario is not set up to justify it.
JMusic
member
Out of the house you should avoid situations such as no alley short cuts at night or watch yourself at the mall parking lot. Inside your house you should have layers of security. Perimeter well lit. I like dogs as a deterance and keep at least on large shepherd in the yard. Bright flashlights and weapons thru out the house.
My rule is this, if I think someone is in the house or yard I call the cops and establish a safe zone such as a bedrooom. If I here a noise that could be something else I check it out. I do look at my layered security though for tampering. I never investigated a home that had a dog no matter what size.
Jeffs multiple shell comment is right on. Hell I sometimes think about it, in fact thats what my main weapons would do. Again I have cleared 100 houses and if I thought someone was in my home I'd round up the family and call the cops. They love doing that stuff. Don't think they ain't coming as hard as they can, its what they train for
Jim
My rule is this, if I think someone is in the house or yard I call the cops and establish a safe zone such as a bedrooom. If I here a noise that could be something else I check it out. I do look at my layered security though for tampering. I never investigated a home that had a dog no matter what size.
Jeffs multiple shell comment is right on. Hell I sometimes think about it, in fact thats what my main weapons would do. Again I have cleared 100 houses and if I thought someone was in my home I'd round up the family and call the cops. They love doing that stuff. Don't think they ain't coming as hard as they can, its what they train for
Jim
Last edited:
Gah!!! Not if you live in Detroit. A friend of my best friend was killed in public last year. Police showed up 10 minutes later, and that's cause the officer was patrolling the area. Poor kid died from blood loss; the officer took him to the hospital half an hour later in the back of his car. The ambulance never came that night despite nonstop phone calls. He died at the hospital having lost too much blood from a single shot to the femoral artery.
I don't think most people here would have to deal with those type of situations though, Detroit's a f'd up city. Still it's good to remember an old Muslim proverb: Trust in Allah but still tie up your camel.
(No I'm not a member of the Islamic faith...)
JMusic
member
've lived in that area most of my life. Not far from there cipher. There is always a tactic if you are prepared. anticipation and street sense. I've been surprised before but the assaliant didn't care for the outcome. Self defense is not that hard if you are aware and serious. When your life and your families is involved I would do as told "Unless" they make a mistake.
Jim
Jim
JMusic
member
This is how my home is set up. Most uderstand neighbors her don't even lock there doors. Everyone watches out for each other with differnt methads. Mine are in layers of systems. LARGE outside dog that runs loose withing a perimeter. Low landscaping all perimeter lit with capability of more light, Two more dogs in the house. Firearms hid in every room. My main weapon is a colt AR15 Two 30 rounders taped surefire lite. SAfe rooom where door is reinforced, cell phone, and dog/firearm.
To be honest, I can't say I wouldn't leave the safe room and give chase. This is not what you should do but I would pop whoever is is the house and then work on the car trying to get away. Its something though I would not
teach someone else or recomend.
Jim
To be honest, I can't say I wouldn't leave the safe room and give chase. This is not what you should do but I would pop whoever is is the house and then work on the car trying to get away. Its something though I would not
teach someone else or recomend.
Jim
Last edited:
btucker1947
Member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2005
- Messages
- 60
That's it Jmusic
If they come looking for an easy victim, they get what they deserve. Been there done that, except, no shots fired. They were lucky, we let them survive. I couldn't believe they were that stupid and brazen, as to think I would fall for,
" (A woman at my door in the middle of the night) saying," my car is broke down up the road, can I come in and use your phone?" LOL
I said , "I'll get the phone for you." I jiggled the locked outside door, and a big dude jumped out from the side of the house with a sign post in his hands , raised to strike.
Next frame is my Son and I had them face down on the driveway at gun point, while the dog cleared the rest of the property. Wrong House!
If they come looking for an easy victim, they get what they deserve. Been there done that, except, no shots fired. They were lucky, we let them survive. I couldn't believe they were that stupid and brazen, as to think I would fall for,
" (A woman at my door in the middle of the night) saying," my car is broke down up the road, can I come in and use your phone?" LOL
I said , "I'll get the phone for you." I jiggled the locked outside door, and a big dude jumped out from the side of the house with a sign post in his hands , raised to strike.
Next frame is my Son and I had them face down on the driveway at gun point, while the dog cleared the rest of the property. Wrong House!
JMusic
member
To Lee's point of pulling the trigger my solution has always to have it in my hand when its callled for. All of us practice drawing and shooting but it should be a rare occurance if you have to do that. I worked tactical LE for about 8 years. Only once did I have to instinctively draw and shoot. It surprised every one in the room including me but it was brought on by the BG. I was there just for additional help he wasn't my responsibility. That was the only time the rest of the time I already had my gun out. I haven't shot a person while on duty but I think if you can shoot the neighbors dog you can shoot anything.
Jim
Jim
sheepdog
Member
Different strokes...
...for different folks...we've all heard this said...
State laws regarding defense of self, others, and property are very different...what is legal in one state is illegal in another...and noone across the country has the right to condemn the moral or legal decisions of another state...after all, the citizens OF THAT STATE, reflecting THEIR wishes and values, voted the laws of their state into being...and someone several states away, in their environment, seldom has enough understanding of what goes on in the other state to make an accurate judgement...that is the LETTER of the law...it determines what conduct is lawful and what is not...in that one state...
...what this thread was supposed to convey was that besides the letter of the law, the SPIRIT of the law exists, too...and that governs the actions like the letter does...but more like fine-tuning...so we should not see "I shot the scum because I could and they can't touch me"-type posts...rather "I decided to use necessary deadly force to stop the threat as defined by the law and allowed by the law"...the first is ignorant and repulses normal people, the second is an intelligent, reasoned statement...I have, in jest or anger, made the first type...as many of us has...but it doesn't do us any favors as gun owners fighting to keep our 2A rights intact...
...as to using deadly force to protect property...which has been criticized often...it is the law of Texas for a reason...the people of TEXAS felt that their truck, cow, home, or business was theirs and not for someone else to take...our families should not be deprived of what we've worked to have just because someone else wants to take it away...citizens' opinions in other states just don't carry much weight here...many more citizens here have been injured or killed by thieves or burglars than have thieves or burglars been killed by citizens defending their property...
...personally, I do not feel that my truck is worth more than a life...but a person who would steal my truck, would often also shoot or beat me for challenging them, might kill someone while fleeing in my truck, or might arm themselves from my truck and harm another...and so my vote would go to allow me, as law has, to decide to stop them if I can...even with deadly force...those from other states have obviously not agreed...but it simply doesn't apply to the situation here...and carry no more weight than my saying their state's law oughta this or that...
...by "this thread," I'm referring to the overview "Rules" thread that had many subtopic links..and all addressed the "wild and crazy" mindset as opposed to intelligent reasoned decisions and expressions...
...for different folks...we've all heard this said...
State laws regarding defense of self, others, and property are very different...what is legal in one state is illegal in another...and noone across the country has the right to condemn the moral or legal decisions of another state...after all, the citizens OF THAT STATE, reflecting THEIR wishes and values, voted the laws of their state into being...and someone several states away, in their environment, seldom has enough understanding of what goes on in the other state to make an accurate judgement...that is the LETTER of the law...it determines what conduct is lawful and what is not...in that one state...
...what this thread was supposed to convey was that besides the letter of the law, the SPIRIT of the law exists, too...and that governs the actions like the letter does...but more like fine-tuning...so we should not see "I shot the scum because I could and they can't touch me"-type posts...rather "I decided to use necessary deadly force to stop the threat as defined by the law and allowed by the law"...the first is ignorant and repulses normal people, the second is an intelligent, reasoned statement...I have, in jest or anger, made the first type...as many of us has...but it doesn't do us any favors as gun owners fighting to keep our 2A rights intact...
...as to using deadly force to protect property...which has been criticized often...it is the law of Texas for a reason...the people of TEXAS felt that their truck, cow, home, or business was theirs and not for someone else to take...our families should not be deprived of what we've worked to have just because someone else wants to take it away...citizens' opinions in other states just don't carry much weight here...many more citizens here have been injured or killed by thieves or burglars than have thieves or burglars been killed by citizens defending their property...
...personally, I do not feel that my truck is worth more than a life...but a person who would steal my truck, would often also shoot or beat me for challenging them, might kill someone while fleeing in my truck, or might arm themselves from my truck and harm another...and so my vote would go to allow me, as law has, to decide to stop them if I can...even with deadly force...those from other states have obviously not agreed...but it simply doesn't apply to the situation here...and carry no more weight than my saying their state's law oughta this or that...
...by "this thread," I'm referring to the overview "Rules" thread that had many subtopic links..and all addressed the "wild and crazy" mindset as opposed to intelligent reasoned decisions and expressions...
Last edited:
JMusic
member
My limited experience is you once you ascertain you are being challenged you say so and say exactly what you are going to do without interference. If challenged again I have attacked, and, or told the adversaries what their probability was. Just my two cents.
Jim
Jim
sheepdog
Member
...meeting the challenge is not looking for trouble...it's facing trouble that's already there...if we are not willing to fight for what we have, it'll be taken from us...I agree with your plan...fair warning and then action...not just a bluff...and the response to your action determines the severity of your attack...it wasn't you who provoked...that's the key...there is in Tx no duty to retreat when you were doing what you should be minding your own business...anyone who looks for trouble is a fool...deserves what they get...if they aren't stopped, they'll take and more next time...we have no freedom if we live in fear...
scottaschultz
Member
Bug out bags, go bags, survival kits, etc...
Why can't we treat this like the Ammo Shortage issue and just have ONE thread on this. While it is certainly a good topic to discuss, I don't think it needs to be re-asked (I just made that word up!) every week!
A lot of these threads end up getting closed and I respect the fact that some people would like to add their thoughts to the issue, but their only other option is to start a new thread, which usually ends up getting closed!
Happy New Year!
Scott
Why can't we treat this like the Ammo Shortage issue and just have ONE thread on this. While it is certainly a good topic to discuss, I don't think it needs to be re-asked (I just made that word up!) every week!
A lot of these threads end up getting closed and I respect the fact that some people would like to add their thoughts to the issue, but their only other option is to start a new thread, which usually ends up getting closed!
Happy New Year!
Scott
Ryder
Member
Not to argue but by definition if something has happened in the past I don't consider it unrealistic to assume it can happen again in the future.
Mob riots, extreme government oppression, and natural disasters can threaten our survival and require firearms to survive... But they are most certainly outlandish situations so I will refrain from discussing them
many wise words here.
ive looked into the wrong end
of a pistol once.
Said yes to everything and
handed over my 100 bucks while being slow and
speaking calm.
End of "battle"
the adrenaline rush is something you cannot "think"-practice.
Those descrbed "gotcha" trainings are as close as it gets.
In a clean area with proper equipment its great fun
and practice to play laser-gotcha or paintball under
full on surprising conditions.
In poker it´s good to check when you dont have the best hand.
In your own home ... you have whats called "position".
Everyone else gets to act b4 you.
some people will hold a "Pocket 9" ...
but the most proven hand in that
position is something like AceKing.
Which would be the pump or
doublebarrel 12 Ga. in this equation.
...once you experience fear, the best option
will be, call cops, put your crew behind you and look
down that hallway with the finger on that shotgun trigger.
if someone is dangrous and wants to rob valuables ... let them.
btw, very nice thread, mp7
ive looked into the wrong end
of a pistol once.
Said yes to everything and
handed over my 100 bucks while being slow and
speaking calm.
End of "battle"
the adrenaline rush is something you cannot "think"-practice.
Those descrbed "gotcha" trainings are as close as it gets.
In a clean area with proper equipment its great fun
and practice to play laser-gotcha or paintball under
full on surprising conditions.
In poker it´s good to check when you dont have the best hand.
In your own home ... you have whats called "position".
Everyone else gets to act b4 you.
some people will hold a "Pocket 9" ...
but the most proven hand in that
position is something like AceKing.
Which would be the pump or
doublebarrel 12 Ga. in this equation.
...once you experience fear, the best option
will be, call cops, put your crew behind you and look
down that hallway with the finger on that shotgun trigger.
if someone is dangrous and wants to rob valuables ... let them.
btw, very nice thread, mp7
Webbj0219
Member
hope we arent hijacking this thread too much? I believe it started out as a reminder from the Moderator to cut out all the fantasy B.S. and get down to the brass tax of real self defense. So I guess in that case the thread is still on course.
For me Id say the biggest hurdle for me to get over was my beliefe that nobody would ever want to take my life. Its natural to believe that, I think everyone comes into the world believing that a human would never intentionally kill another human. But thats not the truth. "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways." 1 Cor 13:11. Ive been somewhat forced into seeing the ugliness of this world. That there is someone out there that would be willing to take my life. Someone out there that would kill me out of hatred or to get something they wanted, or even because theyre sick and would get off on it.
So thats about the gist of my leaving behind my ways as a sheep and becomeing a sheepdog.
For me Id say the biggest hurdle for me to get over was my beliefe that nobody would ever want to take my life. Its natural to believe that, I think everyone comes into the world believing that a human would never intentionally kill another human. But thats not the truth. "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways." 1 Cor 13:11. Ive been somewhat forced into seeing the ugliness of this world. That there is someone out there that would be willing to take my life. Someone out there that would kill me out of hatred or to get something they wanted, or even because theyre sick and would get off on it.
So thats about the gist of my leaving behind my ways as a sheep and becomeing a sheepdog.
- Status
Similar threads
