mljdeckard
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Seems a bit like deciding to give up driving because you saw an accident in your rear-view mirror?
Reason to stop carrying?
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1stmarine
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IMO, if you are defeated and scared in your own mind then gun or no gun or what type it doesn't make much difference.
Perhaps he should see this not just a right but also a moral obligation to be able to come back to loved ones and who knows, perhaps save them, or someone else too.
One has to train well and train as one fights. This means quality professional training one should be able to find locally.
The fear in a fight is always going to be there but wiht training it is manageable as instinct takes over.
Nobody who got killed is going to come back to say they regretted not having a gun and/or the skills to prevail.
Like an old wise samurai once said, we fight at the dojo and then we play at the battlefield.
The gun is important but not nearly as important as the mind that is always the most important weapon we have.
Perhaps he should see this not just a right but also a moral obligation to be able to come back to loved ones and who knows, perhaps save them, or someone else too.
One has to train well and train as one fights. This means quality professional training one should be able to find locally.
The fear in a fight is always going to be there but wiht training it is manageable as instinct takes over.
Nobody who got killed is going to come back to say they regretted not having a gun and/or the skills to prevail.
Like an old wise samurai once said, we fight at the dojo and then we play at the battlefield.
The gun is important but not nearly as important as the mind that is always the most important weapon we have.
sakata8242
Member
This kind of thinking should give your friend, or anyone, a pause to rethink their reason for carrying. I'm not criticizing your friend for being scared; that is a natural response, but what made your friend so certain that he would have engaged the 3 armed suspects? Had he actually been there, there is no way he would have known the 3 were responsible for murdering an innocent woman; the only information he would have had at that time is that there were 3 men robbing a bank.
Just because you carry does not mean you need to (or should) engage in every situation. Sometimes going straight for the gun is a sure way to get you (and other uninvolved bystanders) killed, when feigning compliance and allowing the scene to unfold while looking for opportunities may keep you alive. None of us was there that day, so we cannot say for any certainty how the situation should have been handled while it was unfolding. Knowing when to shoot is something very few people get any kind of training in.
Berger.Fan222
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If one is not confident that one is safer carrying than not, then it is probably better for that person not to carry.
george burns
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Having been in situations like this, they are all different. He could have shot one or two bad guys and ended it. Or possibly needed a reload, "or taken their gun", but if he felt that overwhelmed he probablly should not have been carrying a gun. I mean what did he think might happen? that is the reason we carry. More bullets more guns ,better tactics, etc. Everyone is not action Jackson, and most don't really know what they would do, they only think they do. Having been there, at least, I know how I react, I get very angry that someone is attempting to end my life and those of other innocents. I worry about it later, "that's the way I have reacted in the past" I want them punished right there right now. May not be the smartest thing but it kept me alive on 2 or more occasions.
The truth is that a man with a gun is not necessarily a brave man, he just thinks the gun makes him too scary to mess with, and the last thing he expects, is that someone will shoot him, because they aren't supposed to have a gun. There is a very good chance that seeing a felow bad guy go down will cause the rest to get out of there fast. They aren't hero's just scumbags.
The truth is that a man with a gun is not necessarily a brave man, he just thinks the gun makes him too scary to mess with, and the last thing he expects, is that someone will shoot him, because they aren't supposed to have a gun. There is a very good chance that seeing a felow bad guy go down will cause the rest to get out of there fast. They aren't hero's just scumbags.
mikemyers
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herrwalther
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There is no way to figure out if a J-frame revolver will fight off the 3 bad guys who abducted a woman close by to him. I have seen videos of robbers of stores being chased off with no rounds or a few rounds fired. I have also seen videos of people still fighting after getting hit with rounds. Rule #1 in a gun fight is "Have a gun." It isn't to give up carrying because of what you think might happen.
Quite a number of folks have engaged in self defense with the firearm at hand at that moment. Many that survived upgraded 5 shot 38 to compact 9MM with 7 - 10 rounds and a spare mag or something similar.
Read some of Ayoobs case files and you'll see a trend for survivors.
Your friend made a generalization that the bad guys had the intestinal fortitude to carry on in the face of resistance.
Again I'd go back to Mas articles and see just what happened. You'll find - as in the case of the church goer in south africa who engaged three terrorists with AK-47's with his 5 shot 38 that they broke and ran and he and his church mates survived
Read some of Ayoobs case files and you'll see a trend for survivors.
Your friend made a generalization that the bad guys had the intestinal fortitude to carry on in the face of resistance.
Again I'd go back to Mas articles and see just what happened. You'll find - as in the case of the church goer in south africa who engaged three terrorists with AK-47's with his 5 shot 38 that they broke and ran and he and his church mates survived
I had a friend who many years ago was working alone in a small market out in a rural area. He had a .45 acp in the small of his back. A guy barged in the front door with his gun already out and was at gun point on my friend behind the counter in an instant. Friend never had a chance to go for his gun since the robber had the drop on him. He felt certain he would have been shot had he gone for his gun. Gave the money out of the til and the robber left. He no longer works at the market but he still carries because it gives him options. Even when you carry you have to evaluate the risks and opportunities.
BigBL87
Member
Sounds to me more like a reason to carry something with better capacity. In reality, there's a good chance they would have fled after the first shot was fired, or possibly even at the sight of a gun. In those situations, they're looking for an easy target and one that shoots back doesn't qualify as an easy target.
That being said, if it made him uncomfortable carrying, then it is the right decision for him right now. You need to be comfortable carrying, if you're not you're asking for trouble.
That being said, if it made him uncomfortable carrying, then it is the right decision for him right now. You need to be comfortable carrying, if you're not you're asking for trouble.
fastbolt
Member
Yep.
On the other hand, though, I can think of some cops who survived shooting incidents, on & off-duty, without injury to themselves, who remained satisfied with either 5 or 6 shot snubs, even if they also opted to sometimes carry a larger weapon. The revolvers offer them options for different circumstances, as they envision them, whether chambered in .38 Spl or the more powerful .357 Magnum.
Not everyone finds solace in caliber and capacity, and not everyone who likes to have the option for larger calibers and more ammunition capacity may feel it's necessary for them to have it at all times.
People can still have different opinions, even after having shared similar experiences.
Don't disagree. My point was I don't think you'll find many in his writings who stopped carrying.Yep.
On the other hand, though, I can think of some cops who survived shooting incidents, on & off-duty, without injury to themselves, who remained satisfied with either 5 or 6 shot snubs, even if they also opted to sometimes carry a larger weapon. The revolvers offer them options for different circumstances, as they envision them, whether chambered in .38 Spl or the more powerful .357 Magnum.
Not everyone finds solace in caliber and capacity, and not everyone who likes to have the option for larger calibers and more ammunition capacity may feel it's necessary for them to have it at all times.
People can still have different opinions, even after having shared similar experiences.
mikemyers
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Well put. Just because you carry does not mean you are obligated to do something, but you do have that option. And just because you have a CCW permit does not mean you are obligated to "carry".
Deanimator
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The key to surviving any deadly force encounter is to be more determined to prevail than your assailants.
Somebody who unlawfully uses deadly force against you has made a choice. Hold him to it... to the bitter end.
.308 Norma
Member
I would hope that if somebody even lawfully used deadly force against me, they'd have made a choice.
Just kidding Deanimator. I think I know what you mean. And I agree with you.
Vinnie Boombatz
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there have been a few analogies posted to illustrate the illogic of his reaction. i'd add another that is perhaps more apples to apples:
you're a lifelong avid practitioner of some martial art, chiefly for SD purposes. you walk out of a club one night, go home to sleep, and find out the next day that just moments after you left some dude got put in the hospital after trying to teach a lesson to three nose tackle sized wiseguys who were threatening other club-goers.
so you promptly tell your sensei sayonara.
wouldn't make sense. you could just decide that if you're ever in that situation it'd be best - being outgunned, so to speak - not to engage the three silverbacks regardless of how badly they deserve a beating.
you're a lifelong avid practitioner of some martial art, chiefly for SD purposes. you walk out of a club one night, go home to sleep, and find out the next day that just moments after you left some dude got put in the hospital after trying to teach a lesson to three nose tackle sized wiseguys who were threatening other club-goers.
so you promptly tell your sensei sayonara.
wouldn't make sense. you could just decide that if you're ever in that situation it'd be best - being outgunned, so to speak - not to engage the three silverbacks regardless of how badly they deserve a beating.
mikemyers
Member
Gee, I would think that "fear of the unknown" is a good thing, that will hopefully lead to a person preparing himself better in case something bad happens.
As far as using a gun in self defense, more people should read the articles and stories written by Masaad Ayoob explaining how reaching that gun may change the rest of your life in a very negative way, as your "perceived" need to do so may be seen otherwise by the courts. They don't teach much about this when you apply for a CCW license.
How many people here have followed through with this idea by joining the USCCA?
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/about/
I've already read their materials, and there is no way I would even consider carrying a gun unless I had already signed up with them.
They have a pocket size card of what to say (and not to say) should you be involved in an incident. I don't think people realize what needs to (not) happen once an incident occurs, and the police arrive.
As far as using a gun in self defense, more people should read the articles and stories written by Masaad Ayoob explaining how reaching that gun may change the rest of your life in a very negative way, as your "perceived" need to do so may be seen otherwise by the courts. They don't teach much about this when you apply for a CCW license.
How many people here have followed through with this idea by joining the USCCA?
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/about/
I've already read their materials, and there is no way I would even consider carrying a gun unless I had already signed up with them.
They have a pocket size card of what to say (and not to say) should you be involved in an incident. I don't think people realize what needs to (not) happen once an incident occurs, and the police arrive.
My thoughts exactly. I avoid judging people making personal decisions, but I would look at it the same way. Give up eating anything at a fast food restaurant because there are fat people; give up driving because you've seen an accident; give up athletic activities because you saw a severe mechanical injury. Life is about choices and decisions. I would much rather keep the door open to more choices, especially when it comes to defending myself, yet always seek to exercise and improve my own personal decision making process.
Fear isn't a bad thing if you manage it properly. It should keep you very aware, alert and reinforce prudent decisions. Too many people in society would rather ignore the consequences of dangerous or ignorant behaviors. You can't insulate yourself from life, but you should seek to manage the areas in your life you can control.
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Jim NE
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When any of us make decisions to reduce our future risks, we typically base those decisions on some sort of statistic or probability (either real or perceived), even if there's a good deal of emotion intertwined in our decision. That's the case with everything from choosing our kids' schools and neighborhoods to getting (or not getting) flu shots. When a "future risk" becomes a "present danger", however, it's no longer either a statistic or a probability. Present dangers are a reality, not a possibility. But, since none of us can know the future for sure, decisions concerning the future can be based only on what's possible...not on what is definitely going to be. For me, the decision to carry a gun was based on four separate unrelated instances:Three acquaintances, and one neighbor of mine were murdered randomly in four different crimes by people they didn't know.
- A woman I knew from work was strangled to death by a neighbor who dumped her body in a lake.
- A store owner I used to patronize was shot to death by a "youth" who robbed him of essentially pocket change.
- A customer of mine, who I was friendly with, was carjacked by a gang late at night and shot in the head.
- A neighbor lady of ours was knifed by an illegal alien on drugs...right across the street from our house...just a few minutes after he had tried to molest a 12 year old girl a few blocks away.
No "drug deals gone bad." No "domestic disputes." Completely random. As I said, none of the victims knew their killers. But I knew three of the four victims. Even though these crimes were unrelated, there was a common thread - all of the victims were unarmed. They didn't have a prayer for survival. They couldn't escape their killers.
So yes, it's quite possible I'll run into a situation were the bad guys have me outnumbered and outgunned. That does happen. The OP's friend believes that it's safer being able to escape the wrath of a killer by not confronting him, but the people I mentioned above didn't have that option. I'm not counting on having that option, either.
mikemyers
Member
Actually, what the OP wrote was "He decided that, had he been there, he would have engaged with his 5-shot J-frame and would have been outnumbered, outgunned and likely shot."
That's very different reasoning. "he would have".... Maybe he simply decided that having a gun increased the chances of an innocent person getting hurt or killed. Is being at a bank that is being robbed enough reason to draw your gun and try to stop the robbery? He wouldn't have known that these people were already killers.
If his thoughts were that he would have engaged the vermin, to me, he was not really ready to "carry". I think he ought to have been thinking he could have engaged the vermin if necessary. If all they were going to do was rob the bank and escape, that might have been a better option than starting a gunfight.
I completely agree with what people here are saying that carrying a gun give you options, but along with options are responsibilities.
(Me? I do have a CCW permit, which I got for very different purposes, and I don't "carry". I have guns at home, if someone were try to start smashing down my door, but I don't go walking around with one. .....it's funny though, as maybe people think I "carry", because of a camera that is in a belt pouch covered by my shirt.)
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Dog Soldier
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The privilege of concealed carry is for your personal protection. When you make the decision to act as a law enforcement officer I expect it could be a risk? Police officers are held for investigation after a shooting.
Jim NE
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No, what I said is correct. I'm not presuming anything in OP's statement beyond which he very strongly suggested - most specifically, "Scared him so badly, he stopped carrying all together!"
When I said his friend wants to find a safer alternative than carrying a gun, I didn't specify whether he meant safer for himself or somebody else. Or whether he was scared for himself or somebody else. Because it doesn't matter.
The entire point of my comment was to convey the idea that there are times when not engaging is not an option, whether you're armed or not. Has little to do with his friend's experience at the bank.
Phaedrus/69
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Interesting thread. I agree that logically I would have drawn the exact opposite conclusion- that I needed to carry and should have more gun, not less. But I think the OP's friend made a choice that was valid for him. He probably began CCW'ing based on some vague fantasy about what it meant. Confronted with evidence of the true nature of violence, he looked inward and realized that his CCW decision was based on fantasy, and that he was not prepared for the consequences of using force. Granted, you don't always get to choose and more options beats less, but if you're not mentally prepared to use it you're just carrying that bad guy's gun around for him.
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