Recoil is moving my balls ...

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I have a question for those of you that "swage," if it doesn't shave lead how do you know if it has fully engaged the walls?

Because the balls I use measure .360 dia. and the walls in the chambers measure .357
The .003 has to go somewhere.
Uhhhhhhhh, first of all what do you have that has Ø.357 chambers?

Secondly, if you do have Ø.357 chamber and if you extract your ball using pressure through the flash hole you will measure it smaller than Ø.3570. You don't have to believe me, just try it, you'll be amazed.

The difference (whatever it is you have in your case) is squeezed down with space between the ball and the chamber diameter. The space is occupied with whatever was at the swaging interface between the ball and the bore. It might be grease, lube, fouling or even smeared lead which acts as a boundary film.

If you buy swaging tools they will ask you several things, materials, material condition, lubricant to be used, etc. You don't call them up and say "hey I need a XXX diameter die." You call them up and say, "hey I need the material to be XXX diameter after forming."

If you measure the die using precision tooling you will find it is larger in diameter that the finished part.

The reason the cut surface doesn't get smaller is that you didn't have the displacing forces compressing the ball on the diameter. Instead you had shearing loads which relieves the pressure and allows a full ring contact patch around the periphery.

You can demonstrate that as well, by blowing a ball back out of the chamber. Be careful and stop it literally a full diameter away as it leaves the bore. Pop it into some modeling clay. Compare the contact patch between the two and you will find two things. The cut patch is wider and also larger in diameter and it will have a torn or cut looking surface as compared to a burnished and slicker surface the swaged ball will have.

Regards,
Mako
 
Mako,
I don't think we disagree at all. Note my last post: "If you are not getting ball creep then there's no ned [sic] to chamfer the chamber mouths." I'm of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" camp due to having "fixed" many an item only to end up like Brer Rabbit and the tar baby. The only cylinders I've done any chamfering on were having ball creep issues and I just barely took the edge off to resolve the situation.
Hellgate,
Good, I read it in haste. Then our record stands...

Later,
Mako
 
Well, Well, First yes I have a .36 caliber Remmy that takes a .360 ball.
The chambers do indeed measure .357. I was a machinest for 20 years in
a tool & die shop. I do know how to measure things with calipers, dial indicator, ect. Yes I have measured the ball after it has been pressed into
the chamber and pushed back out, and it measures .357. Before you quiz me
on what barrel I could possible shoot this .357 ball thru, it is one that measures .355 across the grooves. Here is the cylinder

ThePerfectOneCylinder.jpg

Phil
Here is the whole gun

ThePerfectOne.jpg
 
Well, I guess I won't chamfer my cyl mouths. I may ream the chambers out, depending on current ID and uniformity.
I just wish I could swap cyls like Clint Eastwood. My Remmie sheriff's model 58 is easy to remove the cyl, but a PITA to get the cyl pin to line up with the cyl and slide it in.
 
This has been an extremely interesting discussion, gentlemen, and I thank you for your contributions. As a novice I've learned a great deal.

I fired 24 rounds through the Remmy today, using 35 grains of black powder, but this time leaving the Crisco behind in the kitchen. I used no filler, even though there's plenty of room for it, and used Wonder Wads only. Not a bit of bullet creep that I could detect, though I didn't actually measure it with a depth gauge.

I don't know what I was doing wrong, but I suspect it had to do with stuffing the cylinder with excess filler, then a Wonder Wad, and compressing it too much to make it all fit. The Crisco, I believe, contributed to the problem. In any event, my 35 grains loads, using a Wonder Wad, set the bullet back about 3/8 of an inch from the front of the cylinder, and all is well. I have much to learn.

Interesting that you should mention the "Clint Eastwood cylinder change," Jaymo. I've tried and tried and still can't get the hang of changing cylinders while walking with my eyes straight ahead. But I've never been much at multi-tasking.
 
Is that why gangsters grap their crotch?


Dunno about that.
BUT, you know why they shoot their pistols sideways, don't you?
Well, that's how they are in the box.

Sleazyrider, I can't even swap the cyl out quickly while sitting down and looking at it.
 
Makos goods - your 3 original Colt guns lacking chamfered chamber mouths does not constitute proof, or even evidence, that Sam'l Colt did not incorporate that feature on at least some of his guns.
 
Makos goods - your 3 original Colt guns lacking chamfered chamber mouths does not constitute proof, or even evidence, that Sam'l Colt did not incorporate that feature on at least some of his guns.
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....

So Mykeal are you now a philosopher or a practitioner of negative argumentation theory? Using modus tollens logic on us won't fly...

If I were to adopt your tack I could claim Samuel Colt had a stable of Unicorns and upon his death they mysteriously disappeared. You know that there was always a conspiracy against Colt and his unicorn breeding operations don't you? And there have been pictures of his breeding horses (not unicorns) offered to prove he NEVER raised a unicorn. But, " pictures of Colt horses lacking horns does not constitute proof, or even evidence, that Sam'l Colt did not raise Unicorns."

As I tell my students, "Prove it Mykeal... " Show me a picture, show me a reference (besides some conjecture by a magazine writer). Show me a respected firearms historian that will back your claim. But don't look at the evidence and then scoff that it proves nothing. I can show you many, many photos from original Colt's revolvers and I have yet to see one that had a "chamfered" mouth. There are old pistols that have mouth wear and I am not talking about a deburred edge. Look at Kwhi43's cylinder or this one on a Centaur 1860 cylinder.

CIMG0376.gif ThePerfectOneCylinder.jpg

I am not trying to be harsh or contrary, but as you can see I bristle a bit at some suggestions...

Regards,
Mako
 
I make no offer of proof, only a claim. You are free to accept it, to simply disagree or to scoff, laugh, point fingers and call names as is your wont. At least I don't offer limited, scant examples with no provenance and claim it as proof of a historical population's characteristics.

One time: I'll ask, with little hope of success, that you refrain from personal attacks in the future, and from assuming the mantle of representing the rest of the world; you are simply you, not 'us'.
 
I have very nice original 1851 Navy that has chamfered chamber mouths. Then that must be a one of a kind gun if Mako is correct. Unfortunately, my 1861 and 1849 seems to have chamfers too.
 
I make no offer of proof, only a claim. You are free to accept it, to simply disagree or to scoff, laugh, point fingers and call names as is your wont. At least I don't offer limited, scant examples with no provenance and claim it as proof of a historical population's characteristics.

One time: I'll ask, with little hope of success, that you refrain from personal attacks in the future, and from assuming the mantle of representing the rest of the world; you are simply you, not 'us'.



Mykeal,
Did you not see this at the end of my post?

...I am not trying to be harsh or contrary, but as you can see I bristle a bit at some suggestions...

Regards,
Mako

As for scant proof, I offer a population of three as hard physical proof, how many do you offer? I believe the sum you are offering is zero.

I can also proffer photos of other Colt's percussion pistols as evidence. Would you like me to produce them? Don't ask me to do so unless you will concede the point once I produce them. Of course that that condition doesn't apply if you have more than a representative sample of zero to offer as evidence.

You obviously understand representative populations for samples. I'm assuming you did something in your career involving them. Would your audience have accepted a sample size of zero as proof of anything?

Once again to you are making a negative argument. You are asking me to disprove the existence of the possibility of chamfers based on nothing more than your "claim." Where is your provenance Mykeal, is it more than a self held belief? What is the provenance of your belief? I'm serious, what is the origin of this held belief? Do you have samples? Have you pictorial proof? Have you a reference to a credible historical reference or text?

I don't "assume the mantle of representing the rest of the world." I assume the mantle of simple logic and hard evidence. I ask you what is it that you "assume?"

This is not a contest Mykeal, I was challenging the dissemination of information that is not supportable by evidence as being historical. You at any time may say it is your opinion, but that is not what you said is it?

I'm sorry you take my posts as personal attacks, they were not intended as such. I was dealing with the information, not the individual. I apologize for any slight or attack to your person or character.

Regards,
Mako
 
I have very nice original 1851 Navy that has chamfered chamber mouths. Then that must be a one of a kind gun if Mako is correct. Unfortunately, my 1861 and 1849 seems to have chamfers too.
Pictures please...

These are two of my cylinders (I don't seem to have the one of my other 1860 on Photobucket right now)

The 1860 cylinder is from a family heirloom and was produced in 1861, the 1849 is from a pistol I bought 15 years ago, it was produced in 1853.

Note that neither has any evidence of chamfering, There is some wear but no machined or hand cut chamfers to the cylinders. The third cylinder is even better shape than these two and it is as crisp and clean at the mouth as my many Ubertis and Pietta 1860s.

1860Cylinder.gif 1849Cylinder.gif

Regards,
Mako
 
kwhi43,
Okay, if you say so. But it flies in the face of current swaging practice and die sizing and everything we have measured to date.

I wasn't questioning whether or not you had a chamber that size, I was just wondering what manufacturer made them so small. My experience is limited to standard Piettas and Ubertis when it comes to Remington reproductions. I know that Pietta specifies Ø.375 balls for their .36 caliber revolvers.

I believe yours looks like one of those 1858 Target Models that were temporarily imported by a very few from Pietta. I've never seen one with that level of finish or that logo before. I'm assuming it is a Pietta based on the sight style and position as well as the grip screw location. The grip screw location seems to vary among all of the manufactures and not just Uberti and Pietta. If it is a Pietta, it's the first I've heard of one with that barrel bore and chamber size. I know that Pedersoli and at least one Swiss manufacturer made oddball sized bores, but I believe those were the .44s.

Back to the balls in bores discussion… The follow is based on nine months of engineering and troubleshooting to solve a problem with a lead ball dispensing system.

It takes more force to expel a ball from a tube or chamber if it was sheared to diameter upon insertion than one which is swaged during insertion. That was the conclusion resulting from tests using Instron force testing equipment and other apparatus to determine the force necessary to move the ball once lodged in the tube. The force was recorded from the instant the load was applied to the moment it finally left the bore. As you would expect the force was greatest as the friction component was first being overcome, then with the sheared balls it dropped and then rose slightly until the moment the first edge of the periphery hit the bore mouth.

Balls that were swaged or pressed into the tube instead of shearing a ring upon insertion had less of an initial resistance and the force either stayed steady or decreased as it was pushed towards the bore mouth.

I understand some people would chamfer their chamber mouths based on the appearance that it “works better,” for instance they have heard for years that a shallower forcing cone is better, so why not a gentle lead-in? They might also reason that you are “distorting” the ball less because you are not cutting part of it away. Others still might add they postulate the swaging actually creates a radial force caused by the hoop stress between the walls and the ball. It is reasonable to assume a lot of these things, the problem is that they are not always supported by the empirical evidence. To correct myself I should rightly be calling what you are doing drawing instead of swaging. Swaging requires resistance of the operation in the along the axis of the operation which will limit the decrease in the diameter. Done correctly swaging will either increase the diameter or maintain the diameter within a range. Drawing on the other hand will always result in a reduction of the diameter through the orifice. Drawing may be accomplished as the name implies by pulling (or drawing) the material through the orifice or in the case of a slug (ball) it is pushed through. The lack of resistance along the axis causes the material grain structure to align itself along the axial vector and then contracts towards the axis center as it forms. The slug distorts in the axial vector and creates internal forces that causes it to contract rather than expand.

Now I will make one concession towards swaging. I believe it was Hellgate that pointed out you can swage the ball diametrically a bit if you use considerable force on the rammer. Unfortunately most of that force goes into deforming the ball end and not expanding the ball diameter. There is some and you can get more if you are using an off pistol cylinder loader. The problem is that you are resting on a bed of granular powder which will absorb most of the force that you are transmitting via the rammer. There is till the problem of the film between the wall and the projectile.

I would be happy to review your data or even a theoretical argument to the contrary.

Best regards,
Mako
 
Sorry mako, unable to produce any pics right now. My camera has giving me nothing but trouble recently. However, if it wasn't chamfered at the Colt factory that doesn't prove anyone right anyway. And all the factory workers are probably dead by now.
 
Pohill had previously posted the Colt patent info. pertaining to why Sam Colt chamfered or beveled the chamber mouths of some of his revolvers. But that patent information is now missing from his post.
I sent Pohill a PM asking him to repost it in this thread. :)
If you want to go back in time a little, Sam Colt explains why he beveled the chamber mouths - to prevent chainfires (I can post a larger copy).

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=520784&highlight=bevel

Sam Colt chamferred or bevelled the mouths of the chambers to deflect gasses and prevent chainfires. A few of mine have chamferred cylinders, mostly (I think) Ubertis. The ring of lead is shaved deeper into the cylinder.
Is that what you mean by not perfectly shaped?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=490963&highlight=mouths
 
Articap,
That’s okay, we have all of Colt’s patents and the one you are talking about was his second dated August 29, 1839.

That’s’ true Colt did make a claim concerning chamfered chambers in his “Improvements” patent, but as Paul Harvey says, now for the rest of the story…

First let’s look at the claims and illustrations that are part of the patent.

1304-2.gif
1304-2enlarged2.jpg

What Colt is describing is not the little chamfer that Kwhi43 shows or like any edge break I have ever seen anyone attempt on a modern reproduction. The chamfer would have to be very large to even attempt to do what the claim proposes. Note how that the chamfer is literally as large as the forcing cone opening on the barrel. Below is the claim.

1304-4Chamfersection.gif


What most people don’t know is that early Colt pistols had major problems with chain firing. Colt had been trying to sell his revolvers to the United States government, but during a trial he had a chainfire and two chambers fired, it ruined his chances for a contract. His major problem was his enclosed breech face and in some cases the enclosed front of the cylinder face of his rifle designs. He actually tried to encapsulate it. Colt had been pushing the “water proof” qualities of his design much to the detriment of safe shooting. On his reissue patent of October 24, 1848 he removed the sections concerning the covered areas. Otherwise the patent which was called the Reissue patent #124 was just the same as his original patent issued as #138 February 25, 1836. His claims for the chainfire reducing and redirection capability of the chamfers were not borne out by testing, it was an attempt to get around the Leavitt patent and was the first of years of competition and confrontation between Colt and Leavitt.

A Smithsonian firearms historian in 1966 spoke of the Colt failure in his government trials and how he used the Daniel Leavitt patent of April 29, 1837 as a reference in documents to the government in an attempt to get a second trial. His patent was an attempt to address the problem. Unfortunately for Colt he went out of business before he could get a second trial. The reality of the chainfire problem is the exact problem we have today. It was his closed breech that was causing his problem. In fact the chamfers caused increased flash and gas release at the barrel to cylinder interface. This was a phenomenon also present with the Leavitt convex cylinder face which directed the firing gases escaping the gap up and out from the cylinder gap.

182-1Cut.gif

182-2.jpg


Colt abandoned or didn’t put his chamfers on his production rifles, shotguns and pistols. There was no actual advantage and the revolving pistols, rifles and shotguns produced from 1839 to 1842 (1847 for Ehlkers) don’t have the chamfers as shown in the 1839 patent incorporating the chamfer “improvement.” By the time he re-entered business with the Walker revolver it was obvious had realized that redirecting gases at the breech end had solved the majority of his problems and his later patent illustrations and manufacturing documents never made mention of his claims for chamfered chambers in 1839. He submitted a request for patent reissue on his original 1836 patent and was granted that in October of 1848, but he made no attempt to extend or get a reissue of his “improvements” in the patent #1,304 of 1839.

So that is the rest of the story...

You never hear about his failure with the trials or the major problem with Paterson chainfires. Not all of Colt’s ideas or granted patent claims were desirable or even good ideas. It’s too bad the tooling room and pattern shops were destroyed in the fire of 1864, it would be a treasure trove of models that didn’t work out and what “almost was…”

Later in his career with Colt’s he will be involved in several lawsuits with Leavitt and Leavitt& Wesson.

Regards,
Mako
 
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Thank you kindly for such detailed information.
One question that I'm curious about is whether most of your original Colt chambers are straight walled and parallel or are they tapered?
Particularly at the top half or one third of their chambers, are the walls generally parallel or does it seem that are they tapered at all by design or during manufacture?
If they were manufactured to be tapered even slightly, then it could be that Colt was making an attempt to incorporate a shape to expel the gases outward. And the balls would be getting swagged while being rammed deeper into the chamber.
But if the chambers are not tapered but are parallel, then it would seem that Colt was being as consistent as you are were referring to with your chamber testing reference.
Do you have any sampling dimensions for any of your original Colt chambers?
There's not much of anything that can be seen in your photos by the naked eye that can in any way be considered evidence. How straight walled were the original Colt chambers made? The photo angle and level of magnification as they were posted doesn't allow any visual analysis. I tried to magnify them but they're too dark, have small files and were not photographed from enough angles.
Thanks again Mako for the very clear explanation about the Colt patent. :)
 
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I have an 1851 .36 Colt , made in 1862, with beveled or chamferred chambers.
The info that was deleted from one of my older posts was this: (check down to page 14 or 15 on the viewing page).
http://www.archive.org/stream/onapplicationma00coltgoog#page/n17/mode/1up

If the page reader doesn't work well, this is the section that I was quoting: (as far as arguing over patents - no thanks. Doesn't work. But I know what I read, then I look at my original 1851 with the chamferred chambers, and I come up with the theory that, hey, maybe Sam Colt chamferred his chambers.)
ColtChamferonapplicationma00coltgoog_0015.gif

So...how can you tell from a photo that a chamber has a chamferred mouth? If it had been reamed out at the mouth after production, sure (you could see the markings), but if it were reamed wider at the mouth and tapered as it went down, during production, the only way to tell would be to measure it in hand, not from a photo. Correct? Educate me.
I would think that chamferring the mouths would lead to loss of power through escaping gasses, but how would you measure that in any particular gun?
 
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pohill,

How can you bore a tapered hole that is larger where it starts and gets smaller the deeper it goes? I don't think that is possible with a revolver cylinder that is basically closed on one end (discounting the nipple hole as a reamer would not fit in that end).
 
That is the question I have. How would they, back in the day (1860s or so) have chamferred the mouths? I know that it was done, 'cause I see it in my 1851, but would it have been done after production, during...or what? Do they (or did they) make boring tools that are tapered?
 
Well I guess you learn something new every day. EVERY other .36 "Navy" type cap and ball revolver I ever shot needed .375" ball. I have heard of some that needed the .380" swaged/cast RB. My .36 rifle and all those I shot used .350" ball. I guess that things have changed...
 
Well, I guess I won't chamfer my cyl mouths. I may ream the chambers out, depending on current ID and uniformity.
I just wish I could swap cyls like Clint Eastwood. My Remmie sheriff's model 58 is easy to remove the cyl, but a PITA to get the cyl pin to line up with the cyl and slide it in.
Something I've found with my Remington clone:

To remove the cylinder, do not, as the instructions show, place the hammer on half cock. Simply, with the hammer down, lower the loading lever partially and withdraw the cylinder pin, then place your left hand (presuming you're right-handed) beneath the cylinder while holding the pistol right side down, and begin to ease the hammer back. The nose of the hammer will clear the cylinder as will the bolt, and the cylinder will drop out into your left hand.

To replace the cylinder, simply reverse this process, drawing the hammer back to lower the bolt, slip the cylinder in, ease the hammer down until the bolt begins to raise so that you can "hook" the bolt into a locking notch, then align the cylinder so that a nipple is under the hammer, then let the hammer the rest of the way down. The cylinder will now be held in alignment by means of the bolt and by the hammer, which should align it well enough with the cylinder pin so that it can be easily slipped right in.

Harder to describe than it is to do it. Works for me, anyway.
 
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