Recoil Parameters

Status
Not open for further replies.

expat_alaska

Member
Joined
May 4, 2010
Messages
1,972
Location
Pe Ell WA
In the mid 60's my Dad acquired a nice Fox Sterlingworth 20 gauge SxS and shot it.

Evidently the sears were bad as both barrels discharged with one pull of the trigger. It was repaired and it never happened again.

My question is about the recoil with both barrels discharging at the same time.

I heard long ago that the recoil was not 2X that of a single barrel discharging but 4X (squared).

Any comments?

Jim
 
I dont know the specific numbers but both barrels going off on a 20 gauge with a recoil pad wouldn't be so bad, of course, it's totally dependent on the person firing it and what load they're firing out of it.

I used to like to pull both triggers on my 12 ga sxs with target loads and no recoil pad in informal clays just to hear the guys laugh and call me a cheater. I could go about a box or so with a t shirt before it stung. Maybe 6 rounds with high brass before it REALLY stung.
 
FPE is MV^2*gn/450240.
For every action there is an equal and opposite re-action (in this case, recoil)

Say 1 oz loads (430gn) at 1050 fps, the maths looks like:
1 Shell=(1050*1050*430)/450240=1052 FPE going into the shot.
2 Shells=(1050*1050*860)/450240=2105 FPE

Now the same FPE going into a couple ounces of shot gets dissipated through a few pounds of gun, assuming the gun doesn't change mass, it calculates out that it's only double the energy.
 
I heard long ago that the recoil was not 2X that of a single barrel discharging but 4X (squared).

Whoever told you that was wrong. Period. If we could square recoil energy like that, all of our rocket ships would be powered by a few stages, each consisting of a box or two of shotgun shells.
 
Thanks, guys. The gun weighed no more than 5#, had no recoil pad, and the stock drop was at least 3" at the heel. I shot it once for a round of skeet and was ready to throw it on the ground before station 7.

Jim
 
When I did the calculations I got exactly 4X as much recoil. Rather than look up the specs for a shotgun load I ran the numbers for one of my 308 loads since I had those figures handy.

I used this website to calculate recoil.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

I have a load using 178 gr bullets over 45 gr powder getting 2600 fps from an 8 lb rifle. That load generates 18.75 ft lbs of recoil

If I double the projectile weight to 356 gr, double the powder charge weight to 90 gr and keep the velocity and rifle weight the same the recoil is 75.02 ft lbs. Almost exactly 4X what I got with one bullet.

I've never thought about this and had my doubts until I ran the numbers through a recoil calculation program, but the 4X number certainly appears correct.

FWIW, I had a Savage/Fox model BSE years ago that would occasionally fire both barrels with one trigger pull. Recoil was pretty bad
 
Well now you got me scratching my head.
I suppose it's the double powder bit, that calculator would assume it's one big charge (progressive burn) and that is all going into a 7mm hole.
 
To be honest that is not the answer I expected. And there may be other factors not considered. Having the projectiles coming from 2 different barrels may change things. Plus you're not going to get both barrels to fire at EXACTLY the same time. Once one barrel fires the recoil fires the 2nd one. It just happens so fast that shooters do not notice it as 2 separate shots. I know the 1st time it happened to me I didn't realize what happened until I broke the action and found both shells had fired.
 
The problem is folks are using energy for recoil. Yes the energy is a square function because it contains the square of the velocity. But recoil impulse is akin to momentum which is not a squared function. It is MV not 1/2 MV^2.
 
Recoil is calculated using 4 data points, and it is measured in ft lbs energy. Not momentum.

Weight of the projectile
Weight of the powder charge
Weight of the firearm
Velocity of the projectile

I have no idea what formula is used to calculate it. But there are numerous online websites where you can plug in the data and get an accurate recoil measurement. Most not only give the recoil in energy, but in velocity as well. My computer can do the math and if the data entered is correct the recoil measurement is correct.

The weight of the powder charge is extremely important, but is the one factor many forget to consider.
 
If both barrels of a double barreled firearm ate fired at the same time the recoil impulse (change in momentum) increases by 2x the free recoil energy increases by 4X
 
Last edited:
Recoil impulse is simply the mass of everything exiting the barrel times the velocity it leaves (ie change in momentum). For the projectile(s) that is easy, for the propellant gases it is more difficult and usually estimated or directly measured in a lab.

Starting from Newtwon's first law we know that whatever momentum the projectiles and gases had leaving in the muzzle the firearm, the firearm must recoil with the same amount of momentum. Free recoil energy is calculated by taking this change in momentum, working from the assumption that the firearm is floating in zero-G, how much kinetic energy would the firearm have moving with that amount of momentum.

ie. A typical trap load might be 1-1/8 oz of shot pushed by 19gr of propellant to 1200 fps has a recoil impulse of approximately 2.82 slug-ft/sec (this is using the SAAMI's estimation that the average velocity of the propellant gases from a long barreled shotgun in this example is ~1.25 the muzzle velocity of the projectiles)

So if we fired this shell from a shotgun that weighed 7 lbs we would simply divide the recoil impulse by the mass of the shotgun (~.2176 slugs) to get the free recoil velocity of the shotgun ~12.97 fps. Once we have the free recoil velocity it is easy to calculate the free recoil energy using the kinetic energy equation E = 0.5*m*v^2

So we get a free recoil energy of 18.3 ft-lbs of free recoil.

So you can see if we fire both barrel we would double the momentum change since we would push twice the mass out of the muzzle end at the same velocity as shooting one barrel. But if we put twice the momentum change into our free recoil equations we see that we are going to double the free recoil velocity which when put in the kinetic energy equation result in 4X the free recoil energy.

Free recoil energy is a good number for comparing recoil as it takes into account both the cartridge being fired and the weight of the firearm firing it. The military uses it to limit how much solders can shoot various weapons in training.
 
Recoil impulse is simply the mass of everything exiting the barrel times the velocity it leaves (ie change in momentum). For the projectile(s) that is easy, for the propellant gases it is more difficult and usually estimated or directly measured in a lab.

Starting from Newtwon's first law we know that whatever momentum the projectiles and gases had leaving in the muzzle the firearm, the firearm must recoil with the same amount of momentum. Free recoil energy is calculated by taking this change in momentum, working from the assumption that the firearm is floating in zero-G, how much kinetic energy would the firearm have moving with that amount of momentum.

ie. A typical trap load might be 1-1/8 oz of shot pushed by 19gr of propellant to 1200 fps has a recoil impulse of approximately 2.82 slug-ft/sec (this is using the SAAMI's estimation that the average velocity of the propellant gases from a long barreled shotgun in this example is ~1.25 the muzzle velocity of the projectiles)

So if we fired this shell from a shotgun that weighed 7 lbs we would simply divide the recoil impulse by the mass of the shotgun (~.2176 slugs) to get the free recoil velocity of the shotgun ~12.97 fps. Once we have the free recoil velocity it is easy to calculate the free recoil energy using the kinetic energy equation E = 0.5*m*v^2

So we get a free recoil energy of 18.3 ft-lbs of free recoil.

So you can see if we fire both barrel we would double the momentum change since we would push twice the mass out of the muzzle end at the same velocity as shooting one barrel. But if we put twice the momentum change into our free recoil equations we see that we are going to double the free recoil velocity which when put in the kinetic energy equation result in 4X the free recoil energy.

Free recoil energy is a good number for comparing recoil as it takes into account both the cartridge being fired and the weight of the firearm firing it. The military uses it to limit how much solders can shoot various weapons in training.

:thumbup:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top