Red Cherry Question

[whipper]

Hello all,

I have been shootin BP for a bunch of years 20+ and when I first started, an older gentleman told me that the optimum charge of black powder for my gun would be when I see red cherry’s at the muzzle. Being young and naïve at the time I did not question his advice. So I did as he suggested and it has worked on all my bp long guns from .45 - .54.

My question is what are the little cherry’s (small red balls) that I am seeing at the end of the muzzle.

Example of the load I am using

CVA Hawkins 50 cal with 87gr. FFg Goex powder shooting round patched ball. If I vary the load + or – a couple of grains the cherry’s go away and so does the accuracy, and with the cherry’s it seem to be the most accurate load.

Thanks,

 

[husker]

Boy Ive never hear of that one. But in my 20+ years of shooting black powder. Well Im the only one that shoots it. Lil advice did i ever get if any at all.
But now i have a new experiment to go try out. Thanks.

 

[husker]

Hears one I read off of this site. That worked real good for me!! Take your round lead & put them in a can. & shake them till they have divots like a golf ball. My groups shrunk

 

[whipper]

Myth buster did that when they made a clay skin with dimples for a car, and it improved wind resistance. I will have to try that.
Thanks,

 

[AJumbo]

I know what "cherries" you're talking about, but I can't find find anybody who knows what they are or what causes them. I don't take them for a magical indicator of a proper load, however; I tend to rely on group size, penetration in test media, that kinda thing.

 

[nalioth]

The "cherries" would be specks of powder that did not burn behind the projectile bursting into flame upon leaving the barrel, no?

 

[HisSoldier]

I'm also trying to figure out what "cherries" are. A photograph would be nice.

 

[Jaymo]

Sounds to me like unburned grains of powder, igniting right before or right as leaving the muzzle.
I can see the dimples working, since that appears to be the reason for dimples on golf balls.
I wish round balls were made that would cast dimples in the balls.

 

[Pops]

If Seein' 'cherries' is an indication of burning powder, then wouldn't that mean you're using
a bit too much ??

 

[Jaymo]

It would seem that you have exceeded your maximum burn efficiency.
Add another 10 grains of 2f for more spark and flash. Less efficient/accurate, more entertaining.

 

[whipper]

Thanks for the reply’s,

I am hopefully going to the rang in a couple of weeks, I will see if I can get some pictures.

 

[Jaymo]

BTW, I was just kidding about adding more powder for more sparks. Of course, that wastes powder, and powder isn't cheap.

 

[Gatofeo]

If "red cherries" means the tiny specks of red you see in fouling, and on the muzzle, my understanding is that it's the sulfur found in black powder.
Why it manifests itself as red specks is unknown to me. I read that years ago but not since.
As for determining the optimum load by looking for these specks, I dunno. Seems to me that the optimum load will be the one that is most accurate, and of sufficient power to do the job, whether that task is putting a hole in a paper target or putting down a buck deer.
I too have noticed these tiny, red specks in fouling, but I've seen them in my .50-caliber rifle with varying charges. I haven't noticed a correlation between these red specks and accuracy, but then I haven't been looking.
Seems rather far-fetched to me, but strange things happen. Quien sabe?

 

[nalioth]

C'mon guys, some of you must lead sheltered lives.

The bright red glowing end of a cigarette is known as the "cherry". I'm assuming the OP is referring to the red sparks (or cherries) that are the unburned powder specks igniting in the air. . .

Makes sense, in a way.

 

[Pete D.]

That dimpling thing - if you put lead balls in a tumbler and run it, they will dimple. Run it long enough and there will be so many dimples that the balls will be essentially smooth.
About dimples on golf balls - they increase drag a bit but also aid in creating lift so that a golf ball - which has backspin (round balls do not have backspin) - can travel further.
Pete

 

[ThomasT]

I thought the dimples on a golf ball were to disrupt the boundry layer and decrease the drag on the surface of the ball. I used to put turbulator strips on the wing on my R/C airplanes to do the same thing. It did seem to increase the lift and speed a little.

 

[AJumbo]

Pops, Nalioth, and Jaymo- you're almost there, but not quite. Gatofeo has it nailed. The "cherries" that Whipper's referring to show up in the fouling, and can be seen near the muzzle in a freshly-fired ML shotgun or rifle. I've never seen them in a revolver or a BP cartridge arm, but that may mean the I've just simply never seen them.

These little balls are maybe the size of a pinhead, are a dirty red color, and turn black after a few minutes. They don't occur with Pyrodex.

 

[BCRider]

Pete, the dimples actually lower the drag and improve the range of the golf ball. They do this just as Ratshooter suggests by turbulating the air close to the ball's surface so the streamlines flow further around the back of the ball before separating. This produces a smaller turbulent wake than a ball without dimples has. And a smaller tubulent wake means it also travels further for a given starting velocity. The same should apply to our round balls. It's simple enouth to test. Just shoot a few smooth balls at a distant target with some holdover and then do the coffee can dented balls for a few more shots with the same holdover and see if they group higher, lower or the same as the smooth balls.

Ratshooter, I'm another model builder and flyer. Like you I've had good performance from using turbulators on a few models. But they only work at the lower speed end of things where you're relying on higher angles of attack and thus higher lift coefficients. At higher speeds the low lift coefficients allow for fully laminar flow with no risk of separation unless you're using a really odd looking airfoil and pushing it at an angle of attack well out of its best range of operation. Such as using a REALLY thick symetrical section where the air isn't happy about turning the corner inwards behind the max thickness point. THEN turbulators just ahead of the max thick point could help it go faster. In my case I've only used them on sailplanes that got mushy due to separation issues at slow speeds.

Which is all likely Greek to the guys here...