Red Dot for Cast Rifle Loads
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tominboise
Member
Maybe this will help
https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/1387-the-load-is-13-grains-of-red-dot/
https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/1387-the-load-is-13-grains-of-red-dot/
CoalCrackerAl
Member
I run 9 grains of red dot in my 30/30 cast loads.
What are you looking for? Subsonic? milder load? I think I have some Alliant data using BlueDot and Unique for 30-30 Win.
A small charge of RedDot would concern me regarding the position of the powder when ignited.
I have used BlueDot in .308 Win with 125gr jacket with good results, but the rifle was fired in a fairly level position.
Seedy Character
Member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2021
- Messages
- 2,064
I have used Unique in .30-30.
I like Trail Boss better. Fills the chase, burns clean. Accurate and mild, with a 120gr powder coated bullet @2200 fps.
Works great on deer, too.
I like Trail Boss better. Fills the chase, burns clean. Accurate and mild, with a 120gr powder coated bullet @2200 fps.
Works great on deer, too.
GeoDudeFlorida
Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2020
- Messages
- 11,138
Red Dot isn't as forgiving in a short, angular, thin-necked case like the .30WCF as 2400 (which was originally made for small-caliber rifles) or Unique (which does everything because it was invented when one powder HAD to do everything). Back when the .30-30 was new and so was Unique, it was common to load 10gr. of Unique under a 170gr. lead cast flat-nose for deer. If you want less recoil for gallery shooting, up the bullet weight and drop the charge weight. A 225gr. lead bullet made for subsonic .300AAC shooting with 7-1/2gr. of Unique is a good starting recipe for .30-30 metal targets at 75-100yds. Some of the older Lymans and Ideal manuals list loads in this range for turkey and large rabbits. I think these days those loads are mostly in handgun Silhouette shooting but it ought to work in rifle, too since that's where the idea of a heavy bullet and Unique started.
What Ed Harris experimented with were military cartridges with larger capacities and thicker case walls. Keep in mind, it's a shotgun powder first, a pistol powder second and there are ways to use it in rifle but it's not ever going to be the best alternative to a rifle powder. IMR 4227 has been available lately and is also a really, really good mid-range powder - fast for rifle but slow for pistol - and, like 2400, was originally designed for small-caliber rifle. I'd look there before trying Red Dot (and I'm a fan of "The Load" but you just got to understand it's limitations
)
What Ed Harris experimented with were military cartridges with larger capacities and thicker case walls. Keep in mind, it's a shotgun powder first, a pistol powder second and there are ways to use it in rifle but it's not ever going to be the best alternative to a rifle powder. IMR 4227 has been available lately and is also a really, really good mid-range powder - fast for rifle but slow for pistol - and, like 2400, was originally designed for small-caliber rifle. I'd look there before trying Red Dot (and I'm a fan of "The Load" but you just got to understand it's limitations
)
Charlie98
Member
If I was standing in front of a shelf full of powders, I would grab that or IMR4198... but if RedDot is all you are looking at, it will work. I would likely take Unique over RedDot, but Unique has not been regularly available from what I've seen...
Question for the OP: What's wrong with 2400?
Random 8
Member
I use Red Dot for a variety of low velocity cast bullets from .38 special through 30-06. I use it when I want slower than unique velocities. I do not have a 30-30. Probably the closest parallel I have used it in was .300 Savage. I'll not quote my charges as they were basically off-book, but Lyman cast bullet data for various cartridges was my guidepost. Start low, very low, and check bore for obstructions after firing. I've found with a light for caliber cast bullet, one can go mouse-fart low with Red Dot and still get useful accuracy if the bullet stays stable. Makes for pleasant plinking for the kiddos to shoot "that big rifle on the wall." I like it with "carbine" bullets or the 7.62 Nagant plated wadcutter from Grafs in the .30 calibers. https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/5400
AJC1
Member
Use at your own risk
Cast Bullet Basics For Military Surplus Rifles
By C.E. Harris Rev. 9-6-93
Cast bullet loads usually give a more useful zero at practical
field ranges with military battle sights than do full power
loads. Nothing is more frustrating than a military rifle that
shoots a foot high at a hundred yards with surplus ammo when the
sight is as low as it will go!
Do NOT use inert fillers (Dacron or kapok) to take up the excess
empty space in the case. This was once common practice, but it
raises chamber pressure and under certain conditions contributes
to chamber ringing. If a particular load will not work well
without a filler, the powder is not suitable for those conditions
of loading.
Four load classifications from Mattern (1932) cover all uses for
the cast bullet military rifle. I worked up equivalent charges
to obtain the desired velocity ranges with modern powders, which
provide a sound basis for loading cast bullets in any post-1898
military rifle from 7 mm to 8 mm:
1. 125-gr., plainbased "small game/gallery"
900-1000 f.p.s., 5 grains of Bullseye or equivalent.
2. 150-gr. plainbased "100-yd. target/small game",
1050-1250 f.p.s., 7 grs. of Bullseye or equivalent.
3. 150-180-gr. gaschecked "200-yard target"
1500-1600 f.p.s., 16 grs. of #2400 or equivalent.
4. 180-200-gr. gaschecked "deer/600-yard target"
1750-1850 f.p.s., 26 grs. of RL-7 or equivalent.
None of these loads are maximum when used in full-sized rifle
cases such as the .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, 7.7
Jap, 7.62x54R or .30-'06. They can be used as basic load data in
most modern military rifles of 7 mm or larger, with a standard-
weight cast bullet for the caliber, such as 140-170 grains in the
7x57, 150-180 grains in the .30 calibers, and 150-190 grains in
the 8 mm. For bores smaller than 7 mm, consult published data.
The "Small Game or Gallery" Load
The 110-115-gr. bullets intended for the .30 carbine and .32-20
Winchester, such as the Lyman #311008, #311359 or #311316 are
not as accurate as heavier ones like the #311291. There isn't a
readily-available .30 cal. cast small game bullet of the proper
125-130-gr. weight. LBT makes a 130-gr. flat-nosed, GC bullet
for the .32 H&R Magnum which is ideal for this purpose. I
recommend it highly, particularly if you own a .32 revolver!
The "100-Yard Target and Small Game" Load
I use Mattern's plainbased "100-yard target load" to use up my
minor visual defect culls for offhand and rapid-fire 100-yard
practice. I substitute my usual gaschecked bullets, but without
the gascheck. I started doing this in 1963 with the Lyman
#311291. Today I use the Lee .312-155-2R, or the similar tumble-
lubed design TL.312-160-2R. Most of my rifle shooting is done
with these two basic designs.
Bullets I intend for plainbased loads are blunted using a
flatnosed top punch in my lubricator, providing a 1/8" flat which
makes them more effective on small game and clearly distinguishes
them from my heavier gaschecked loads. This makes more sense to
me than casting different bullets. Bullet preparation is easy.
I visually inspect each run of bullets and throw those with gross
defects into the scrap box for remelting. Bullets with minor
visual defects are tumble-lubed in Lee Liquid Alox without
sizing, and are used for plain-based plinkers. Bullets which are
visually perfect are sorted into groups of +/- 0.5 grain used for
200 yard matches. Gaschecks pressed onto their bases by hand
prior running into the lubricator-sizer.
For "gaschecked bullets loaded without the gascheck," for cases
like the .303 British, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x54R Russian and .30-'06 I
use 6-7 grains of almost any fast burning pistol powder,
including, but not limited to Bullseye, W-W231, SR-7625, Green
Dot, Red Dot, or 700-X. I have also had fine results with 8 to 9
grains of medium burning rate pistol or shotgun powders, such as
Unique, PB, Herco, or SR-4756 in any case of .303 British size or
larger.
In the 7.62x39 case use no more than 4 grains of the fast-burning
powders mentioned, or 5 grains of the shotgun powders. These
make accurate 50-yd. small game loads which let you operate the
action manually and save your precious cases. These
plinkers are more accurate than you can hold.
Repeated reloading of rimless cases with very mild loads results
in the primer blast shoving the shoulder back, unless flash holes
are enlarged with a No.39 drill to 0.099" diameter. Cases which
are so modified must NEVER be used with full-power loads! ALWAYS
identify cases which are so modified by filing a deep groove
across the rim with a file and label them clearly to prevent
their inadvertent use. For this reason I prefer to do my
plainbased practice shooting in rimmed cases like the .30-30,
.30-40 rag, .303 British and 7.62x54R which maintain positive
headspace on the rim and are not subject to this limitation.
The Harris "Subsonic Target" Compromise
Mattern liked a velocity of around 1250 f.p.s. for his "100-yard
target" load, because this was common with the lead-bullet .32-40
target rifles of his era. I have found grouping is best with
nongascheck bullets in military rifles at lower velocities
approaching match-grade .22 Long Rifle ammunition. I use my
"Subsonic Target" load at around 1050-1100 f.p.s. to replace both
Mattern's "small game" and "100-yard target" loads, though I have
lumped it with the latter since it really serves the same
purpose. Its report is only a modest pop, rather than a crack.
If elongated bullet holes and enlarged groups indicate marginal
bullet stability, increase the charge a half grain and try again.
If necessary increasing the charge no more than a full grain from
the minimum recommended, if needed to get consistent accuracy.
If this doesn't work, try a bullet which is more blunt and short
for its weight, because it will be more easily stabilized. If
this doesn't do the trick, you must change to a gaschecked bullet
and a heavier load.
The Workhorse Load - Mattern's "200-Yard Target"
My favorite load is the most accurate, Mattern's so-called "200-
yard target load". I expect 10-shot groups at 200 yards, firing
prone rapid with sling to average 4-5". I shoot high-
Sharpshooter/low-Expert scores across the course with an issue
03A3 or M1917, shooting in a cloth coat, using my cast bullet
loads. The power of this load approximates the .32-40,
inadequate for deer by today's standards.
Mattern's "200-yard target load" is easy to assemble. Because it
is a mild load, soft scrap alloys usually give better accuracy
than harder ones such as linotype. Local military collector-
shooters have standardized on 16 grains of #2400 as the
"universal" prescription. It gives around 1500 f.p.s. with a
150-180-gr. cast bullet in almost any military caliber. We use
16 grains of #2400 as our reference standard, just as highpower
competitors use 168 Sierra MatchKings and 4895.
The only common military rifle cartridge in which 16 grains of
#2400 provides a maximum load which must not be exceeded is in
the tiny 7.62x39 case. Most SKS rifles will function reliably
with charges of #2400 as light as 14 grains with the Lee .312-
155-2R at around 1500 f.p.s. I designed this bullet especially
for the 7.62x39, but it works very well
Cast Bullet Basics For Military Surplus Rifles
By C.E. Harris Rev. 9-6-93
Cast bullet loads usually give a more useful zero at practical
field ranges with military battle sights than do full power
loads. Nothing is more frustrating than a military rifle that
shoots a foot high at a hundred yards with surplus ammo when the
sight is as low as it will go!
Do NOT use inert fillers (Dacron or kapok) to take up the excess
empty space in the case. This was once common practice, but it
raises chamber pressure and under certain conditions contributes
to chamber ringing. If a particular load will not work well
without a filler, the powder is not suitable for those conditions
of loading.
Four load classifications from Mattern (1932) cover all uses for
the cast bullet military rifle. I worked up equivalent charges
to obtain the desired velocity ranges with modern powders, which
provide a sound basis for loading cast bullets in any post-1898
military rifle from 7 mm to 8 mm:
1. 125-gr., plainbased "small game/gallery"
900-1000 f.p.s., 5 grains of Bullseye or equivalent.
2. 150-gr. plainbased "100-yd. target/small game",
1050-1250 f.p.s., 7 grs. of Bullseye or equivalent.
3. 150-180-gr. gaschecked "200-yard target"
1500-1600 f.p.s., 16 grs. of #2400 or equivalent.
4. 180-200-gr. gaschecked "deer/600-yard target"
1750-1850 f.p.s., 26 grs. of RL-7 or equivalent.
None of these loads are maximum when used in full-sized rifle
cases such as the .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, 7.7
Jap, 7.62x54R or .30-'06. They can be used as basic load data in
most modern military rifles of 7 mm or larger, with a standard-
weight cast bullet for the caliber, such as 140-170 grains in the
7x57, 150-180 grains in the .30 calibers, and 150-190 grains in
the 8 mm. For bores smaller than 7 mm, consult published data.
The "Small Game or Gallery" Load
The 110-115-gr. bullets intended for the .30 carbine and .32-20
Winchester, such as the Lyman #311008, #311359 or #311316 are
not as accurate as heavier ones like the #311291. There isn't a
readily-available .30 cal. cast small game bullet of the proper
125-130-gr. weight. LBT makes a 130-gr. flat-nosed, GC bullet
for the .32 H&R Magnum which is ideal for this purpose. I
recommend it highly, particularly if you own a .32 revolver!
The "100-Yard Target and Small Game" Load
I use Mattern's plainbased "100-yard target load" to use up my
minor visual defect culls for offhand and rapid-fire 100-yard
practice. I substitute my usual gaschecked bullets, but without
the gascheck. I started doing this in 1963 with the Lyman
#311291. Today I use the Lee .312-155-2R, or the similar tumble-
lubed design TL.312-160-2R. Most of my rifle shooting is done
with these two basic designs.
Bullets I intend for plainbased loads are blunted using a
flatnosed top punch in my lubricator, providing a 1/8" flat which
makes them more effective on small game and clearly distinguishes
them from my heavier gaschecked loads. This makes more sense to
me than casting different bullets. Bullet preparation is easy.
I visually inspect each run of bullets and throw those with gross
defects into the scrap box for remelting. Bullets with minor
visual defects are tumble-lubed in Lee Liquid Alox without
sizing, and are used for plain-based plinkers. Bullets which are
visually perfect are sorted into groups of +/- 0.5 grain used for
200 yard matches. Gaschecks pressed onto their bases by hand
prior running into the lubricator-sizer.
For "gaschecked bullets loaded without the gascheck," for cases
like the .303 British, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x54R Russian and .30-'06 I
use 6-7 grains of almost any fast burning pistol powder,
including, but not limited to Bullseye, W-W231, SR-7625, Green
Dot, Red Dot, or 700-X. I have also had fine results with 8 to 9
grains of medium burning rate pistol or shotgun powders, such as
Unique, PB, Herco, or SR-4756 in any case of .303 British size or
larger.
In the 7.62x39 case use no more than 4 grains of the fast-burning
powders mentioned, or 5 grains of the shotgun powders. These
make accurate 50-yd. small game loads which let you operate the
action manually and save your precious cases. These
plinkers are more accurate than you can hold.
Repeated reloading of rimless cases with very mild loads results
in the primer blast shoving the shoulder back, unless flash holes
are enlarged with a No.39 drill to 0.099" diameter. Cases which
are so modified must NEVER be used with full-power loads! ALWAYS
identify cases which are so modified by filing a deep groove
across the rim with a file and label them clearly to prevent
their inadvertent use. For this reason I prefer to do my
plainbased practice shooting in rimmed cases like the .30-30,
.30-40 rag, .303 British and 7.62x54R which maintain positive
headspace on the rim and are not subject to this limitation.
The Harris "Subsonic Target" Compromise
Mattern liked a velocity of around 1250 f.p.s. for his "100-yard
target" load, because this was common with the lead-bullet .32-40
target rifles of his era. I have found grouping is best with
nongascheck bullets in military rifles at lower velocities
approaching match-grade .22 Long Rifle ammunition. I use my
"Subsonic Target" load at around 1050-1100 f.p.s. to replace both
Mattern's "small game" and "100-yard target" loads, though I have
lumped it with the latter since it really serves the same
purpose. Its report is only a modest pop, rather than a crack.
If elongated bullet holes and enlarged groups indicate marginal
bullet stability, increase the charge a half grain and try again.
If necessary increasing the charge no more than a full grain from
the minimum recommended, if needed to get consistent accuracy.
If this doesn't work, try a bullet which is more blunt and short
for its weight, because it will be more easily stabilized. If
this doesn't do the trick, you must change to a gaschecked bullet
and a heavier load.
The Workhorse Load - Mattern's "200-Yard Target"
My favorite load is the most accurate, Mattern's so-called "200-
yard target load". I expect 10-shot groups at 200 yards, firing
prone rapid with sling to average 4-5". I shoot high-
Sharpshooter/low-Expert scores across the course with an issue
03A3 or M1917, shooting in a cloth coat, using my cast bullet
loads. The power of this load approximates the .32-40,
inadequate for deer by today's standards.
Mattern's "200-yard target load" is easy to assemble. Because it
is a mild load, soft scrap alloys usually give better accuracy
than harder ones such as linotype. Local military collector-
shooters have standardized on 16 grains of #2400 as the
"universal" prescription. It gives around 1500 f.p.s. with a
150-180-gr. cast bullet in almost any military caliber. We use
16 grains of #2400 as our reference standard, just as highpower
competitors use 168 Sierra MatchKings and 4895.
The only common military rifle cartridge in which 16 grains of
#2400 provides a maximum load which must not be exceeded is in
the tiny 7.62x39 case. Most SKS rifles will function reliably
with charges of #2400 as light as 14 grains with the Lee .312-
155-2R at around 1500 f.p.s. I designed this bullet especially
for the 7.62x39, but it works very well
Attachments
I don't know how forgiving Red Dot might be in a rifle application, but it does seem awfully fast for it IMHO. Over the years I've come across several older guys who used Unique for low power rifle rounds for 45-70, 30-30, and 30-06. None of them used Red Dot, and one guy I knew well who did all those rounds used a lot of Red Dot in 45C.
AJC1
Member
I like 2400 better than unique in the 3 rifles I've tried 6.5×55, 308, and 7.7 but that's far from comprehensive
That makes sense to me. Do you know if 2400 is position sensitive in those calibers?
I have no plans to download any rifle calibers, but that would be useful information for people who do.
Barbaroja
Member
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2020
- Messages
- 1,645
I think it would be easier to find an alternative powder to load 357 with than to find a better cast bullet rifle powder than 2400
AJC1
Member
It's not my experience to be position Sensitive but I have not done comprehensive powder forward powder rear testing that some people do. I drop the round in the chamber and go.
Charlie98
Member
Reverse engineering... I like it!
That’s an excellent suggestion. I know my supply will run out eventually. I bought the HS-6 I’ve been trying recently with that very thing in mind. It seems like a good substitute particularly in lighter bullets. The other solution is to buy more 2400 if I see it. Another 2 bottles would last me for years at my current rate.
AJC1
Member
I havent seen 2400 available in months. Alliant is basically gone. 4227 has been my rifle lead option.
Charlie98
Member
I’ve seen some Alliant powder, and I know PV has had some. It’s not non-existent, but certainly hard to come by.
A local gun shop had some but for a pretty penny. I bought it specifically for cast rifle loads before I had a 357. I’m going to try a different powder for the 357. I have enough 2400 to finish the 158 grain XTPs that shoot so well from my Blackhawk and not hamper my cast rifle tinkering.
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