Reducing .45/70 loads by 35%. What's the danger?

[dgang]

I'm puzzled when people say not to reduce loads more than 10%,it can be just as dangerous as over- pressure loads. Hodgdon lists max loads for .45/70 lever action rifles 60 gr. of powder under a 300 gr. SJHP, then lists 45 gr. for minimum black powder pressure loads. That is a reduction of 25%. Same case, bullet and powder from the same rifle. What gives?

 

[mkl]

Much difference between black and smokless powder as far as pressure. Black powder wants the bullet set right on top of the powder charge -- hence the "70" in the 45-70. That's 70 grains of black powder behind a 400 or so lead bullet. Try that with smokless powder and you have made a bomb that will destroy your gun. Get a good loading book and read, Your ignorance could be dangerous to you.

 

[Coyote3855]

[

Much difference between black and smokless powder as far as pressure. Black powder wants the bullet set right on top of the powder charge -- hence the "70" in the 45-70. That's 70 grains of black powder behind a 400 or so lead bullet. Try that with smokless powder and you have made a bomb that will destroy your gun. Get a good loading book and read, Your ignorance could be dangerous to you.

I think the OP is asking about "black powder pressure loads," not about loading with black powder. "Black powder pressure loads" are intended for older firearms such as the Springfield Trapdoors. Modern rifles such as Marlins can handle strong loads of smokeless (note spelling) or about any load of black powder for the pressure reasons you know.

A bit presumptuous of you to assume he is ignorant. He references Hodgdon so he has either looked online or already has a "good loading book." I grant his question was not completely clear.

I don't have an answer to his question. I have heard of significantly underpowered handloads resulting in detonation and damage to the firearm. I think those instances are rare.

 

[dgang]

Much difference between black and smokless powder as far as pressure. Black powder wants the bullet set right on top of the powder charge -- hence the "70" in the 45-70. That's 70 grains of black powder behind a 400 or so lead bullet. Try that with smokless powder and you have made a bomb that will destroy your gun. Get a good loading book and read, Your ignorance could be dangerous to you.

Using smokeless powder at black powder pressure levels

 

[mkl]

I meant no insult using the word "ignorant" -- it simply means "lack of knowledge."

I have used extremely reduced handloads in my 45-70 with no adverse results. Unique is a good powder for reduced loads.

 

[Savage30L]

Try Trail Boss from Hodgdon, it's a smokeless powder designed to produce black powder pressures, and there is a lot of load data available for it on the Internet and in manuals.

 

[243winxb]

That is a reduction of 25%

What powder? IMR single base powders have worked when reduced more then 10% , for me. But the IMR 4166, a double based powder, with nitroglycerin is reduced about 20%. on Hodgdon. Powder with nitroglycerin, i would not reduce more then in listed data. Just me.

H4895 is Hodgdons Reduced Load Powder. Single based.

Seems to be a guestion for Hodgdon?

My guess- each powder Hodgdon down loads, has a minimum PSI where it will burn safely? And get the bullet out the end of the barrel.

 

[MEHavey]

dgang: Cutting to the chase here:
Where did you see that "Do not Reduce" warning for the 45-70 ?

(Note also that when such a warning does exist, it's usually associated w/
max'd-out loading using very specific high-performance ball powders
like H110/W296/LilGun, etc, Not the usual/traditional stick powders as
normal for the 45-70 and many other big BPCR cases)

 

[.38 Special]

As mentioned, some powders don't like to be reduced, as they start to burn erratically below a certain pressure. This can result in unpredictable pressure spikes, and also stuck bullets, either of which can be bad for your health.

Other powders are fine with reduced loads, though of course every powder will have a point below which stuck bullets are likely.

Not reducing loads more than 10% is an adequate rule of thumb, as it nearly guarantees that no one gets hurt. It is not cast in stone, though, and anyone insisting that it is is simply demonstrating his inexperience.

 

[dgang]

What powder? IMR single base powders have worked when reduced more then 10% , for me. But the IMR 4166, a double based powder, with nitroglycerin is reduced about 20%. on Hodgdon. Powder with nitroglycerin, i would not reduce more then in listed data. Just me.

H4895 is Hodgdons Reduced Load Powder. Single based.

Seems to be a guestion for Hodgdon?

My guess- each powder Hodgdon down loads, has a minimum PSI where it will burn safely? And get the bullet out the end of the barrel.

Using H4198 for 300 gr. and Varget for 350 gr. jacketed bullets.

 

[dgang]

dgang: Cutting to the chase here:
Where did you see that "Do not Reduce" warning for the 45-70 ?

(Note also that when such a warning does exist, it's usually associated w/
max'd-out loading using very specific high-performance ball powders
like H110/W296/LilGun, etc, Not the usual/traditional stick powders as
normal for the 45-70 and many other big BPCR cases)

Did not see it specifically for .45/70 loads. Seemed to be a "rule of thumb" posted on one of the gun boards.

 

[Blue68f100]

Some powders can be download as much as 60%, some are not recommended to be reduce more than 3%. When only Max load is given it normal to reduce the max by 10% with a few exceptions. H110/W296 use to have a warning not to reduce more than 3%. I think this was specific to 357mag and 30 carbine. Some loads published show reduction greater than the 3%. Not sure if its just new personal not knowing or what. In general H110/W296 is for full power loads only.

 

[Walkalong]

What gives?

Tested data vs "rule of thumb" for some powders.

 

[243winxb]

Using H4198 for 300 gr. and Varget for 350 gr. jacketed bullets.

https://hodgdon.com/resources/safety-data-sheets/ Both are single based powder.

Always best to follow published data.

 

[gwpercle]

You will be best served by sticking to published and printed load data ... it has been pressure tested .
Some powders can be reduced and some powders can't be reduced and what you read on the internet may not be correct ... I see alot of Wrong things said like they had been written in the Bible .

Don't be acting the fool ... stick with tested and published data .
Gary

 

[Soonerpesek]

I'm puzzled when people say not to reduce loads more than 10%,it can be just as dangerous as over- pressure loads. Hodgdon lists max loads for .45/70 lever action rifles 60 gr. of powder under a 300 gr. SJHP, then lists 45 gr. for minimum black powder pressure loads. That is a reduction of 25%. Same case, bullet and powder from the same rifle. What gives?

The Western Handloading Guide Edition 1:

Lists a STARTING load of 5744 in a trapdoor @ 24.3 gr and a MAX load in a Ruger #1 @ 40.0 gr..................same bullet, primer, COAL, 24" test barrel at a 1 in 20 twist rate.
Granted, you aren't gonna fire that MAX Ruger load in a Trapdoor, but you could fire the MIN Trapdoor load in a #1.
This is all tested and published data, so no one would be acting the fool.
Some powders are simply VERY versatile, and in the case of the 45-70's cavernous case, pressure can be kept at a minimum and still be functional.
It may have been @Bearded Phil (I apologize if I have the wrong member) that posted a thread about this a year or 2 ago, it's a pretty solid thread to research...
I believe the thread started out asking why there are "gaps" in the load data among the 3 divisions of 45-70 categorized data.
I would like to work on/ develop a subsonic load for a 1895 RugerMarlin with a SiCo Hybrid 46...........

Anyhoo.....................Just my opinion.................Happy shooting.......

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I'm puzzled when people say not to reduce loads more than 10%,it can be just as dangerous as over- pressure loads. Hodgdon lists max loads for .45/70 lever action rifles 60 gr. of powder under a 300 gr. SJHP, then lists 45 gr. for minimum black powder pressure loads. That is a reduction of 25%. Same case, bullet and powder from the same rifle. What gives?

You should look up the definition of the word, “can.”
Whether or not a radical reduction is dangerous depends. On about a dozen factors.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Tested data vs "rule of thumb" for some powders.

Rule of thumb: blanket statements are rarely factual for any specific case and the facts of a specific case are rarely applicable to the broadest possible range of cases.

 

[jmorris]

Hodgdon lists max loads for .45/70 lever action rifles 60 gr. of powder under a 300 gr. SJHP, then lists 45 gr. for minimum black powder pressure loads.

”Powders“ are different, different enough they cannot be interchanged without significant risks of injury in some cases. Even “black powder” isn’t a catch all. Note that these are all different from one another and intended for different uses. despite actually being the same thing, just ground differently.


It gets even worse if you introduce BP substitutes. It’s very important at this point to understand that BP subs need to be used in ”grains volume” vs actual weight in grains.

This chart might be worth looking over. The top line is what these weigh at 100 grains “volume”, you can see how this might be an issue if you used a scale and say Pyrodex P, would be a considerable overcharge.



Reloading is about paying attention to details. Forget about mixing BP data with smokeless.

Try Trail Boss from Hodgdon, it's a smokeless powder designed to produce black powder pressures, and there is a lot of load data available for it on the Internet and in manuals.

If you already have some, It‘s made in Australia by Thales, last batch produced was in 2020.

 

[Charlie98]

I believe the thread started out asking why there are "gaps" in the load data among the 3 divisions of 45-70 categorized data.

I remember that thread... I opined that in generating the 3 'tiers' of data for the .45-70 specifically, not only were they addressing the firearm limits themselves, but also a velocity threshold. Blackpowder-EQ load, for example, suggest a cast bullet at fairly sedate velocity; you would not spec a heavy jacketed bullet for that purpose because of pressure limits, and/or the danger of sticking a jacketed bullet at low velocity. The same powder and same bullet could be ramped up accordingly for 'modern lever-action' loads, and still be a reasonable solution, along with some jacketed bullets. The same powder and a jacketed bullet could be ramped up into Tier 3 loads, very likely with only jacketed bullets... because of the velocity potential... or, perhaps 'hard cast' gas checked cast bullets, too.

I shoot a fair amount of .45-70, these days in a modern 1885, but kept at BP velocity for my own reasons. I also shoot lower velocity cast rifle loads in .30-30, .308, and .348WCF... but with an appropriate powder, using published data.

I'm puzzled when people say not to reduce loads more than 10%,it can be just as dangerous as over- pressure loads. Hodgdon lists max loads for .45/70 lever action rifles 60 gr. of powder under a 300 gr. SJHP, then lists 45 gr. for minimum black powder pressure loads. That is a reduction of 25%. Same case, bullet and powder from the same rifle. What gives?

As was mentioned, don't anticipate anyone giving a blanket statement that it's OK to download any powder/bullet/cartridge combination... there are too many elements and variables in that. As was also mentioned, some powders don't like to be downloaded (H110/W296 come to mind) and is noted as such in published data, just like some powders don't like to be compressed (TrailBoss comes to mind.) Some powders are more versatile in that arena... thinking of cast bullets in rifle, IMR4198, IMR4227, 2400, and some others really excel at that, others not so much. It boils down to the right tool for the job...

For example, I would not reduce a charge of a slower powder, like H4350 or H4831, in an attempt to generate a 'low velocity' or reduced load... that is a poor choice of powder to do the job, when an ideal powder, like IMR4198, or even IMR3031, would handle that with no danger.

 

[dh1633pm]

Like everything, the original post is about information. Information that people here have is valuable, as well as the warnings. We post to get more info or directions as to where we might look. Good advice. I used trail boss for 45-70 and found it wanting. Lower pressure loads are nice for practice or older rifles. I dabbled with lower loads and pistol powders in 45-70. Found a nice reduced load for Unique and also a keeper with AA5744. Careful research and testing of course are needed. Good
Luck with things.

 

[dgang]

Thanks to all for your input.