Reloading black powder

[Jackrabbit1957]

No worries, 9mm bullets are.355 to .356 where as .38 s are .357. It was the case it's self that stopped you from going further. As you gain experience things will come together easier. Work with what you have for now.

 

[robhof]

Many of you know me from my 1851 Navy & beginner lengthy thread.
Soon I'll start reloading, I'm in a process of getting everything I need, next month I expect to be fully equipped. I learned a lot about it by watching youtube videos and reading about it here and elsewhere around the web. But I still have some questions, at this moment just one important specific question. I asked staff members where to post this, in Blackpowder or in Reloading section, and they said that it could be better to post here. So bear with me please.

I have:
- Pietta 1851 Navy .36 with steel frame
- Kirst Konverter conversion cylinder to .38
- .38 Special brass cases (the only one suitable for my cylinder which I could obtain) - made by Magtech
- .38 hollow base wadcutters, .357 diameter, 148 gr, with grooves, lubed, soft lead
- FFFg black powder (POW-EX by WANO)
- Winchester primers - small pistol for standard pistol loads
View attachment 819688

The cylinder chamber is 36 mm long. The case is 28 mm long. If I seat a wadcutter fully (flush with mouth of the cartridge), I still have 8 mm of length between the tip of the wadcutter/case and the chamber's mouth. That's a lot of length (empty space) still left in a chamber. That means that wadcutter could protrude out of the case without any impact on the cylinder's rotation.
I'm mentioning this because I heard that when wadcutter is completely inside the case - not much room is left for the powder - and that could result in weak shot or even in possibility that such amount of black powder may not have enough energy to push the bullet down the barrel.
But since I have plenty of room still left in cylinder's chamber, I could put MORE black powder and let a wadcutter stick outside the case - but the big question is: HOW MUCH?

Another (small) question is about the lube. I asked the web-shop to tell me what type of lube is on my wadcutters and the reply was: "It is standard lube. It will fit for Smokeless and Blackpowder." Not much info. Should I put something between black powder and wadcutter, maybe fill the bottom of the hollow base with lube, or use lube cookie or lubed wad? Or is a factory lube already on them enough?

THANK YOU!

I would use the center groove as the crimp groove and add powder to make compressed load, most modern lubes aren't ideal for B/p use, their oils can be petroleum base and seriously increase fowling, I'd replace lube with an appropriate B/p lube or the Gatefeo lube, which is what I use for all my B/p cartridges, modified for optimal stiffness by adding more bees wax.

 

[BCRider]

You'll quickly find out if the lube in the grooves of the bullets is not right. The fouling from the black powder will fill the groove of the rifling and your shots will start to wander after about 15 or 20 rounds. And by the time you're up to around 30 rounds you'll be shooting "minute of hillside". That's how I found out the hard way that some bullets which were promised to be good for BP were in fact the wrong type of lube. By the end of the day the rifling packed up hard with fouling and the bore looked like a smoothbore musket. Was hell to clean out too. Lots of brushing needed.

If this happens to you there is a way to fix those bullets. Get some beeswax and vegetable shortening and make up some proper BP bullet lube. Dump all your left over wadcutter bullets into a pot of boiling water and boil out the existing wax lube. Use an old thrift store pot for this because I'm sure that the pot won't be good for cooking any longer... The wax lube will rise to the top. Remove from heat and let it chill overnight and the lube will form a skin on top. Bust it away and pick it out and drain the water and bullets out from below. Let them dry well. Make some good BP lube and either pan lube the bullets with it or just wipe it into the grooves and then load the newly lubed bullets.

If you need some felt for grease wads shop around for some old "pure wool" felt hats in thrift shops. Just be sure they are marked pure wool. There's also hat making hobby places online that sell "felting supplies" where you could buy a square meter or so of pure wool felt in your choice of weight (thickness). So check those out too. To make the wads for the cookies you can sharpen the mouth of a cartridge and punch out a dozen or so wads before re-sharpening the casing. And with the lube in the felt the sharpening might last longer too.

 

[whughett]

Have been away from the Forum for a bit and haven't read all of the comments in this thread so I'll assume someone mentioned the same black powder rules that apply to muzzle loading apply to cartridges also, number ONE being NO AIR Space, tween ball, bullet, or whatever and the powder. His photo shows a wad cutter which is general loaded flush with the mouth of the case.

 

[1861]

I learned a little trick to up the powder charge when I was using 38LC brass. Originally I could only fit a little over 14 grs, of 3F with the long hollow base bullet I was using and that sounded a little anemic. That hollow base will hold about 2 grs of powder. I added that extra 2 grs to the case which now totaled a bit over 16grs. I just started the bullet in the case(without completely seating it), then turned the whole case up-side down which allowed the extra powder to fill the hollow base of the bullet. I used a hand held portable press to finish seating the bullet while the whole thing was up-side down.

Hello all... long time no see, eh? How you all been?
So, almost a whole year has passed, and I didn't use my reloading press at all - until today. I was preoccupied with other things.
This is what I got: https://leeprecision.com/reloader-press.html
...and today I have loaded my first few bullets, finally. It was super-easy. I still haven't shoot them, but I will very soon, maybe tomorrow.
I quote this post by Navy Six because of this part: ...turned the whole case up-side down which allowed the extra powder to fill the hollow base...
I was worried the whole time will I manage to fill the holow base completely with powder... I was so afraid to have the air gap which everyone dreads.
So this morning after reading that post by Navy Six again after 9 months, I've realized that not only turning the case the upside-down seems to be the best way to be sure to fill the hollow base - but I've also realized that I can even improve on the method he described ("I used a hand held portable press to finish seating").
What I did today is - I mounted the whole press upside-down. Insted of fixing it on top of the table - I've fixed it underneath the table, bottom up. It may sound strange, but it doesn't look strange and it doesn't work strange, it operates equally. That way I can be sure that THANKS TO GRAVITY - the hollow base will ALWAYS BE FILLED.
Am I the first one to think of that, to load with press mounted upside-down?
Anyway, I used about 19.5 grains, and that left the waddcutter protruding almost 4 mm (about 0.15 inch) outside the case. Which is ok, because I still have full 4 mm of length till chamber's mouth. I thought I'd be able to compress the powder more, but that's about maximum I was able to compress it. These wadcutters have 3 grooves, and the top groove is just below the mouth of the case, almost in line with the mouth of case. That's the maximum length that I'm prepared to let protrude out of the case, which means that about 19.5 grains is the maximum I'll use. I hope that load will be ok for me.
When I shoot it - hopefully in the next 24 hours - I'll let you know.

 

[1861]

...and it's PERFECT. Right from the start, from the very first bullet I made yesterday - all perfect. It took me full 20 months since I got the Kirst Konverter to try it out.
I can upload some photos, just give me time... I'm quite slow as you can see Thanks all, especially Navy Six who gave me the upside-down ("bat-like") idea for the loading press.

 

[Black Jack Shellac]

Hi 1861 If someone else has brought this up,please excuse me here. If your barrel is the 36 caliber of the percussion revolver, it's going to be way oversize . The barrel is likely to be as big as .375 dia. Any .358 dia bullet may even fall through the barrel. I will say that the hollow base bullets you have could expand and fit the barrel upon fireing. It may not be accurate though.
Black Jack Shellac

 

[1861]

.358 dia bullet may even fall through the barrel

Hi. You're right - my .357 wadcutters indeed fall freely through the barrel.
But I don't see the point of your post.
I have .36 revolver. To use cartridges, I got conversion cylinder to .38. So that's my setup, that's what I have. That means I need .38 Special cases - that's the size I need, no more, no less. For .38 Special cases I need .38 bullets, so I went with the hollow base wadcutters with .357 diameter. It has to be hollow base so that its bottom can expand. .357 fits tightly into .38 Special cases, anything wider than .357 probably wouldn't fit or the mouth of the case would "shave" it to a .357 diameter as I push it into the case. But the main reason why I bought .357 HBWC is because that was the only hollow base soft lead bullet available to me. I'm not in the USA, I have very narrow options for everything mentioned. Right now I can't buy even that one any more, luckily I bought enough of them earlier.
So what exactly you wanted to say, what would be your advise? I don't see other options for me. The way I see it, if the hollow base expands enough, it will work, I should have a decent accuracy. If it doesn't expend enough, the accuracy will not be so great. But that's how it is - so what part would you change? Everything I have is intertwined and mutually dependable, so to say.

 

[Jim Watson]

I used .38 hollowbase wadcutters in a cartridge conversion for a while. They worked fairly well but when one did not expand enough to take the rifling, it did not hit the target. I eventually had the barrel lined to .357" for good accuracy with plain base bullets. This is probably not possible for you, at least not at a reasonable cost.

There is a US company that offers equipment for loading traditional heeled bullets. Again, I doubt they can ship abroad.
http://cartridgeconversion.com/Home_Page.php

 

[1861]

Thanks Jim, I know about heeled bullets, drobs told me about them long ago, but there is no doubt - NO such thing (bullets, guns, powder...) can be shipped across Atlantic, so it's pointless discussing it. I have what I have.

 

[.38 Special]

It will be interesting, after all the fuss, to hear how the gun actually shoots.

 

[1861]

Funny to see someone else named .38 Special - that's the name I use for myself around some other places on the web
For now I'm happy that it works and that it didn't blow up in my hand. 4 days ago was just a short testing in urban area, highly illegal and dangerous.
I have to wait for a chance to go to my shooting ground far away from town to check it thoroughly, to get some real sense of its accuracy. I really hope to have some decent accuracy, but I won't despair without it.

 

[.38 Special]

I wish you luck. I did recently come across an article by Mike Venturino in Guns magazine. He has a second generation Colt 1861 with a Kirst conversion. He claims 2" 25 yard groups with .38 Special cases and Speer wadcutters. He is using smokeless powder, however.