Reloading for M1A

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ny32182

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I think I'm going to start shooting some of my rifles more over the winter since it is my competitive pistol off season, and because I have rifles sitting there begging to be shot.

To that end, I've been shooting my M1A some over the last couple weeks with various crappy surplus I bought during one of the panics (which I should have left on the shelf)...

Anyhow, I'd just like to see what I can do with some better ammo.

I have various components that I think/hope should work, but I've heard in the past that certain loads can bend the op rod in these guns? I have several questions I guess to start:

1) Is it true that certain loads can bend the op rod? If so, what load characteristics should I AVOID?

2) What exactly is the max OAL for the magazine in this gun, and is it safe to load that long without running into the lands? Ex: For ARs in the past, I've stuck to 2.26" or shorter so they would fit in a GI magazine, and never had any problems chambering or running into the lands, at least with any bullets I've ever tried.

Stuff I have:

150gr FMJ
155gr SMK
168gr SMK
155gr AMAX
168gr AMAX

H335 and WC844 (lots, so this would probably be my preferred powder)
Varget
BL-C(2)

Thanks for any thoughts or input.
 
My M1A loves the 168g SMK w/ H4895. Never tried 335/844, but Varget was pretty good. Mine just grouped much better w/H4895.
 
Wow... I'm through about the first 4 pages...

I've loaded several thousand rounds of .223 for ARs, and some .308 for bolt guns, but never any .308 for a semi auto.

Realistically, I'm not a match grade reloader when it comes to rifle ammo, and don't have precision measurement tools. Right now I just have a normal FL size die that I set up to pass my LE Wilson go/no-go case gauge.

So far, that PDF makes it sound like I'd be playing with fire in an M14.

Mine is an off the rack M1A Scout Squad, not a custom match rifle. Does everything in there still apply? I'm continuing to read it, but maybe I should just get an AR10 if I want to load .308 for a semi that is going to exhibit some quasi-decent accuracy?

I have a FAL as well, but it is kind of hard on the brass, at least with cosmetic dings and whatnot... I don't know what it is doing in terms of stretching the shoulder and case head relative to the M1A. I wasn't planning on loading for it, given how much it dings the brass, plus, I figured the M1A would be more accurate, and it definitely has nicer sights.

I shall read the rest of the document...
 
Hornady 9th Edition has loads specifically for M1A and M1 Garand.
I have a NM and my best loads are Hornady 168gr A-Max and Varget.
SMK's are very good as well as H4895 and IMR 4895.
Hornady "One Shot" is an easy case lube.
CCI #34 primers.
 
So far, that PDF makes it sound like I'd be playing with fire in an M14.
He says three things:

1. Use medium-burn powders
2. Full length re-size
3. Toss after a half-dozen firings

For 99% of reloaders, that is sage advice.
 
You should take some precautions against slamfire which would be FL resizing and watching your primers. I cut the pockets just a little bit so they're always a little below flush, and then I am comfortable with not checking each one by hand. Finally, always load from the magazine (or ease the bolt halfway forward before letting it fly).

I would also get like a case comparator to set the FL sizing die with. Take your fired cases and make them 0.002-0.004" shorter on average.

You're generally going to reach the end of the magazine before you hit the lands. IME, you can get within about 0.010" of the max mag length and still not have issues. Never pushed it beyond that. Checking for the lands is easy: cram a cartridge into the chamber with your thumb. If the cartridge drops out on its own when you point the muzzle up, then it's not in the rifling. A clever guy can use that to find out almost exactly where the lands are for a given bullet, measure, and set a specific amount of bullet jump.

Get a good case lube. The one mentioned 2-3 posts above has been spotted frequently in the "i got a case stuck" threads.

Also, in spite of what Zediker thinks, Varget is OK. Those articles are 15 years old now and a lot of people have shot a lot of Varget. He does a good job of assembling information, but he doesn't have a technical background.
 
My M1A standard accuracy load is 155g AMAXs with 38.5g H4895 in a LC case and 2.800 OAL. Shoots 5 shot groups between 1"-.750"
 
I ended up with the following:

42.6gr Varget
WCC case
2.791 OAL

Case gauged in an LE Wilson gage, everything looked good; they all fed, chambered, fired, and ejected fine.

Chronoed 2542fps out of my 18" scout squad. Primers and everything looked good. South African 147gr mil-surp was chronoing 2594 on the same day, same rifle.

The problem is, I've had these cases sitting around for years and don't remember exactly where I got them or how many firings might be on them. I think they are pretty new now, likely (now) only fired twice, but I don't know for sure. I guess I will need to get some new ones if I want to keep loading for this rifle.

I don't think it was very accurate, but still would say it was shooting groups half the size of the surplus at 200yd.
 
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My advice for reloading for M1a’s is to

1. Full length resize in a small base die

2. Trim cases

3. Clean primer pockets, ream to depth

4. Prime all cases by hand, verify that all primers are below the case head, and use the least sensitive primers you can find.

5. Use IMR4895/AA2495/H4895 powders.

6. Seat the bullets to magazine depth, no longer than 2.8 for the 308, shorter is fine.


The M1a has a free floating firing pin, like this M1 carbine. The M1 Carbine and the M1a have a firing pin retraction cam. This cam pulls the firing pin back during extraction. It also has limited utility as a safety device, but is easily defeated by tight or long rounds. If you sized your round smaller than the chamber the odds would will be in your favor to have an in battery slamfire if you happen to have an overly sensitive primer on that case.

Only at final cam down is the firing pin retracted. Up to then the firing pin is totally free floating and tapping the heck out of the primer.

This is a M1 Carbine firing pin retraction cam.

DSCN1383FiringPinEngagingbridge.jpg


This is the M1 Garand firing pin retraction cam they are functionally identical, just the carbine is easier to visually understand.


oob2b.jpg


This is a M1 Garand receiver and the firing pin is fully forward and just touching the firing pin retraction cam. As you can see there is only thousand's of an inch of forward movement left in bolt cam down and yet the firing pin is out about 0.064" of the bolt face.


ReducedDSCN6749IHCReceivershowingbr.jpg


This is the location where out of battery slamfires occur.

If the bolt has to stop here to crunch fit a long case or a fat case that firing pin is rebounding off the back of the primer at its highest velocity and the lugs are not engaged. There are many of out of battery slamfire reports in these mechanisms.

That is why it is important to small base size cases used in these rifles and to set up the dies with a case gage and size to gage minimum. (Assuming you don’t know the headspace of your chamber, if you do, always be 0.002 to 0.003” less) You want the bolt to close without resistance. This will reduce the risk of an out of battery slamfire.


ReducedWilsongagemeasuringnew308bra.jpg

I recently bought a set of reamer cut gages by Sheridan Engineering. I love gadgets like this.

30-062020Sheridan20Engineering20case20gage_zps6873xiiy.jpg

These case gauges are dimensionally correct for a SAAMI chamber. You can drop a sized round or a loaded round in the thing and see if there is an interference fit somewhere. The Wilson gauges only measure base to shoulder distance, they are cut large in the middle. The Wilson gage won't tell you if the round is fat. The Sheridan gauges will.

There are some who say small base dies are not needed in these rifles, the Gunwriter Mike Venturino has been one. For years he has been saying in print that only standard sizing dies are need. But in the July 2012 issue of Guns Magazine, he is testing an M1a and a AR10 and his reloads are too tight. I find it humorous to read of him beating the bolts open with scrap lumber. Ha, Ha.

If you attempt to small base size with a spray on lube you will stick the case in the die. I recommend RCBS water soluble or Imperial Sizing wax. These are excellent lubes.

For these rifles it is safety critical to ensure that all primers are below the case head. Reaming primer pockets to depth is a good idea. Seat the primers by hand, and verify that all of the primers are below the case head. There is a chance that a cocked primer, with the anvil firmly seated on something, will cause a primer initiated slamfire. One poster swaged his primer pockets, which shaved brass donuts into the pocket. He left the donuts in the pocket, which resulted in high primers, and his AR10 slamfired in battery. Clean those pockets! A high primer can cause a slamfire but only if the anvil is firmly seated. High primers are one of the most common cause of misfires because the primer won't fire unless the anvil is seated and is pushed up into the primer cake. http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/ However, given a shallow pocket it is theoretically possible that high primers could slamfire, given debris in the pocket, you can get a slamfire.

When I bought my SuperMatch M1a’s, Springfield Armory provided a copy of Wayne Fattz’s article “The Mysterious Slamfire” which was printed in the American Rifleman in Oct 1983. http://www.scribd.com/doc/2649554/Th...ious-Slamfire-

Mr. Faatz had an out of battery slamfire, from the clip, with Federal primers. He wrote an article trying to understand why it happened to him.

First on his list of slamfire causes is a sensitive primer.

1. Sensitive Primer (included under this category is a high primer)
2. Minimum headspace chamber and inadequate case sizing (leading to the firing pin hitting the primer with excessive force)
3. Hammer following the bolt
4. Fouled bolt face​

Any service rifle that has a free floating firing pin can slamfire at any time if improper ammunition is used. The use of commercial factory ammunition or reloads that use soft or more sensitive primers often create slamfires.

Because SKS’s slamfire so often, there are lots of slamfire reports with SKS’s, Murray’s has a firing pin modification to reduce the chance of slamfires. Also, the SKS boards has this excellent “A primer on primers”

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0


Springfield Armory M1A Manual, page 4

http://www.springfield-armory.com/do...=M1AManual.pdf.

Ammunition
The M1A is designed and built to specifications to shoot standard factory military 7.62 NATO ammunition. The specifications for standard military ammunition include harder primers to withstand the slight indentation from the firing pin when the bolt chambers a cartridge. This slight indentation is normal. The use of civilian ammunition with more sensitive primers or hand loads with commercial primers and/or improperly seated primers increase the risk of primer detonation when the bolt slams forward. This unexpected "slam fire" can occur even if the trigger is not being pulled and if the safety is on. Use of military specification ammunition will help avoid this.

Every shooter should use extreme caution when loading this or any other firearm. See page 17 for instructions on proper loading to help avoid a "slam fire". Also see enclosed article on “Slam Fire” written by Wayne Faatz



Federal primers are the most sensitive primer on the market and the most "slamfiring" primer in Garands/M1a's. I have lots of web accounts of slamfires with Federal primers. Don’t use them. I recommend CCI #34's and Tula7.62 primers as they considered "Mil Spec" primers. Which means they are less sensitive than commercial primers, federal being the most sensitive commercial primer on the market

When firing single shot, load from the magazine. Do not put a round in the chamber and drop the bolt. Lots of inbattery slamfires, and a few out of battery, have happened because of this. You want to slow the bolt down. When rounds feed from the magazine the friction between cartridges slows the bolt a bit.

Use powders that are close to IMR 4895 in burning rate or just use IMR 4895. High port pressures are the concern. High pressures will create excessive operating rod acceleration. The NRA used to recommend powders that have burning rates between IMR3031 and IMR4320. This includes powders such as IMR 4064, and Winchester 748. I believe the first choice of powders are IMR 4985, H4895, AA2495. In the 308 I have used a load of 168 grain Sierra Match, 41.0 to 41.5 grains IMR4895, LC cases, and CCI #34 primers OAL 2.800 for years.

Check cartridges for case head separation. Gas guns are hard on brass: the bolt unlocks while there is still significant chamber pressure. Because of this the case gets stretched on extraction. Carefully inspect cases for stretch ring marks at five reloads. They occur about .4” of an inch ahead of the base. You can verify if the cases are internally necking by inserting a bent paperclip in the case, and feeling for an edge. A number of shooters I have asked claim various case lives in the M1 or M1A. Some have case head separations about the fifth reload, others have taken their cases up to ten reloads. The useful lifetime of a case is determined by case head separations, case neck splitting, or primer pocket enlargement. When any one of these failure mechanisms happens to a case, it has exceeded its operational lifetime. In my experience, US military brass holds up better than commercial cases. But this is a broad generalization. You want to use heavy cases over light cases.
 
41.5 grains IMR 4895 with a 168 SMK has been the go-to load for "National Match" handloads for decades.

I'm sure there are other good loads.

There are, but IMR 4895 is such a staple. I think I used AA2495 when I earned my Distinguished Rifleman Badge and won a regional Gold. But on the way, I used IMR 4895 and AA2495. AA2495 is a copy of IMR 4895 and I did not find any velocity difference grain for grain. I am a fan of H4895 and my chronograph data does not show any significant velocity difference between H4895 and IMR 4895. In my opinion, these powders should be the first choice, then go experiment and see if you can beat them. Which is going to be very hard.

I shot kegs of AA2520, a ball powder, but the stuff left a lot of residue in the gas system and was not any more accurate, through it threw well in the powder horn. Just tonight I was over at a bud's house, he was very pleased with his 308 Win deer loads and AA2520, claimed sub MOA groups on the bench, and knocking them dead at 300 yards with a 165 Hornady. However, I am not a fanboy of ball powders, I prefer stick. I tried Varget, my lot was a bit too slow. Varget is outstanding in a bolt rifle. IMR 4064 had a good following, it is an outstanding powder in the M1a and M1 Garand, but it is so long grained, you have to weight it for best results. I shot three pounds of IMR 3031, also long grained, but it shot well.

The 7.62 Cartridge was developed with IMR 4895 as the propellant. I have a reference from the American Rifleman on the history of this round, and IMR powder was the first propellant. IMR 4895 was also the powder used in all the National Match ammunition. The US Army did standardize on ball powder for ball ammunition. I have not seen a technical justification, so it is my opinion, that some Army General received a very financially rewarding job with a powder contractor, after retirement. This is often how these things go, some high placed individual creates policy, that he is rewarded for in his post Army career.
 
Aaaaaahhh.... said:
I have not seen a technical justification, so it is my opinion, that some Army
General received a very financially rewarding job with a powder contractor,
after retirement. This is often how these things go, some high placed
individual creates policy, that he is rewarded for in his post Army career.
Y'all might want to read HERE.
 
Thanks for the info...

I think for a gun this ammo sensitive though, I'm just not going to mess with it...

I'll get an AR10 and do some 308 loading for it.
 
I agree. My M1A is what got me started reloading and I was instantly rewarded with shot groups cut in half. I'm vary cautious and pay a lot of attention to headspace and primer depth, mainly because of posts like Slamfire's and others, but after you send your 1st round down range and you don't get blowed up, it's all routine from then on.

In my opinion, you won't get the full potential from your M1A until you make your own ammo for it.
 
I don't have an M1A, but I do have an M1 rifle, AKA Garand. One of the things I did, which I believe is applicable to the M1A as well, is to fit the gas system with an adjustable gas valve plug. I shoot TAC in mine, which is within the acceptable burn rate range, and adjusted mine down to the point where is just barely cycles the action. That should let my NM op rod live a long and safe life.
 
Yep... like some of the guys said.... SMK168 w/4895 . Nothing else any better in my M1A loaded....

And it's true. You won't get full potential until you find that load for your rifle. Factory just won't get there.
 
I shot 20 rounds of my loads through it with basic Hornady FMJ bullets, first try with anything but milsurp, and the groups were cut in half (but still not great).

However, I trust factory ammo less than my reloads. The only time I've ever blown up a gun was with factory ammo.

I didn't realize the platform was so prone to slam fires. I don't do anything in particular that requires this exact gun, like match rifle shooting, so it might just be best to move to a different platform.
 
Mehavey:

I have not seen a technical justification, so it is my opinion, that some Army
General received a very financially rewarding job with a powder contractor,
after retirement. This is often how these things go, some high placed
individual creates policy, that he is rewarded for in his post Army career.

Y'all might want to read HERE.

I don't see a source or a reference for John Coleman's post. This is mine, whether this is better than John Coleman's opinion, that is up to the reader.


History of T65 Cartridge

Reference: page 49 Oct 1973 American Rifleman

The preliminary drawing for the experimental cal 30 short cartridge was completed at Frankford Arsenal on Dec 12 1944, under the nomenclature Cartridge Ball, Cal. 30, T65. The T designation indicated a test items. The preliminary load development work was done at Aberdeen Proving Ground early in 1945.

On March 6, 1945, Frankford Arsenal was directed to produce 15,000 T65 cartridges for experimental test barrel firing. Manufacture of this ammunition, using IMR propellant, was completed in August 1945. This loading gave an average instrumental velocity of 2600 fps at 78 ft from the muzzle.

After the initial production by Frankford Arsenal, development of the T65 cartridge continued with the assistance of Olin Mathieson chemical Corp and Remington Arms Co. On Dec 15 1953, the final form of the T65 cartridge, the T65E3, was adopted as the 7.62 mm NATO by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization nations of Belgium, Canada, France, United Kingdom, and the United States. Formal standardization of this round as a U.S. rifle-caliber military cartridge occurred in August 1954.
 
ny32182,

There are guys here that have decades of experience with the M1A. I'm not one of them. I do read what they say and take it to heart. With so much written on the subject of slam fires you could get the impression that they happen often. I think they're in fact pretty rare. Again, I'll defer to the old hands to correct me if that's not the case.

I believe the point is that you have to take a bit of extra care and attention to detail when reloading for any semi-auto that uses a floating firing pin.

The real danger in my mind is to your wallet. M1As are an addiction. Reloading is an addiction. Doing both is like snorting meth while injecting heroin and taking a shot of jack Daniels, all at the same time
 
I shot 20 rounds of my loads through it with basic Hornady FMJ bullets, first try with anything but milsurp, and the groups were cut in half (but still not great).

However, I trust factory ammo less than my reloads. The only time I've ever blown up a gun was with factory ammo.

I didn't realize the platform was so prone to slam fires. I don't do anything in particular that requires this exact gun, like match rifle shooting, so it might just be best to move to a different platform.
I don't know that I would use the expression "so prone" or even "prone". Can such rifles with a free floating firing pin slam fire? Yes, they can. Are all slam fires the sole fault of the ammunition? Nope, I don't believe so.

If you really read what forum member Slamfire has to say on the subject I believe you will see that Slam fires have multiple causes and there are multiple ways to prevent or reduce the chances of a slam fire. Thousands of M1 Garands and M1A rifles are fired every day without any adverse effects. There is no reason to fear these rifles more than any other rifle.

Again, just my opinion but the term "I didn't realize the platform was so prone to slam fires" is stretching the truth just a little.

Just My Take....
Ron
 
I have reloaded for the M1a for 30 years with no slam fires, bent op rods, or any other mishaps in thousands of rounds fired. Until now, I have been blissfully unaware of the extreme risks involved and always used a set of standard Dillon dies in a 550 and almost exclusively LC brass which I discarded after 4 reloads. 4895 powder with some A2520 more recently.
How I got away with it, I'll never know.
 
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