flipajig
Member
Hear is one for yall I wonder what the repercution would be if you took out a BG with some of your own reloads.
reloading for personal carry
- Thread starter flipajig
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Nero_Atrum
Member
I have always been advised against carrying reloads.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
If you search here, or on almost any gun forum, you'll see this debated to the point of exhaustion, boredom, and lunacy.
The prevailing thought seems to be, it could come up in court, but cases where it has are about as common as unicorns.
If it is a legally justified shooting, then what you shot him with is irrelevant.
If it is NOT a justified shooting, then what you shot him with is irrelevant.
-Sam
The prevailing thought seems to be, it could come up in court, but cases where it has are about as common as unicorns.
If it is a legally justified shooting, then what you shot him with is irrelevant.
If it is NOT a justified shooting, then what you shot him with is irrelevant.
-Sam
Deanimator
Member
It can cause an ambiguous good shoot to look like a bad one, since it exponentially increases the forensic variables. Most lawyers don't know guns well enough to deal with these things to effectively counter misinformation or disinformation from an ignorant or malicious prosecutor.
In general, it's not a good idea.
In general, it's not a good idea.
The Lone Haranguer
Member
Agreed.Deanimator said:
rbernie
Contributing Member
Pretty much.
This is the crux of the concern. There are a few tangential case references to back up the notion that the inability for the forensics team to duplicate the shooting conditions at your SD scene due to the use of non-factory ammo of unknown characteristics may result in erroneous conclusions (distance to target, for example, estimated based upon GSR spray) being drawn.
This should be true, but the variables include getting the criminal justice system to accept that it was a legally justified shooting when the forensics are muddy.
More to the point, just ask Harold Fish how a prosecutor can use the chambering/ammo used to justify the overall theme that the shoot was NOT legally justified.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Very little actual case statistics on this, but the gut (and Mas Ayoob) says to avoid it.
flipajig
Member
I dont carry reloads im new to the forum and havent seen any about the topic and to get other ideas on the thought.Thanks and i know that you have to take what you read with a grain of salt..
Quoheleth
Member
The only time I would carry reloads is if I were out of factory ammo and could not obtain more.
Then, and only then, would I carry reloads.
Q
Then, and only then, would I carry reloads.
Q
The Lone Haranguer
Member
Shoot reloads to your heart's content in training, practice, competition, plinking or whatever. When you finish and load your firearm for defense, use factory loads. Really, is it so hard to buy a couple of boxes (or however much it takes to fill your handgun and spare ammo carriers) of factory defensive JHP loads and use that for carry? Why give the prosecution or plaintiff's lawyer a peg to hang that hat on?
Some "gun pundits" also recommend that you tear the flap off the box or otherwise record the ammo's manufacturer and lot number. This way the factory can provide identical ammo as a "control." Priming compounds, powder types/mixtures and other GSR ingredients can change over time.
Some "gun pundits" also recommend that you tear the flap off the box or otherwise record the ammo's manufacturer and lot number. This way the factory can provide identical ammo as a "control." Priming compounds, powder types/mixtures and other GSR ingredients can change over time.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I'm not arguing with any of the folks who have posted that the use of factory ammo provides a tiny modicum of reduced validity to a prosecutor's case against you in a hypothetical "gray area" shoot.
But...
As exceedingly unlikely any of us are to be in a self-defense shooting, the further chance that said shooting will be so contentious as to require extensive forensic investigation of the sort that would require exactly the same type of round be fired, is another order of magnitude less likely still.
To, yet further, say that the case may hinge on how the ballistics of the cartridge changed as the powder decreased in energy during storage is utter fantasy. A million completely uncontrollable and un-reproducible variables in the moment of firing would have more effect of the results of the test.
And so the Gun Shot Residue signature might vary minutely over time. First off, GSR -- from what I've read -- has been largely abandoned as a valid forensic tool (in establishing guilt) because it is extremely easily contaminated/compromised and quite transient. And, more to the point, are any of us really contemplating a scenario in which establishing the shooter's identity (which is what GSR is primarily used to do) would be an issue? Our common SOP is to be as honest and clear about the events as possible -- if we shot the gun, we're going to be saying so. No need for a GSR survey.
I'm just beginning to see this as a kind of hysteria. If these concerns were valid, we'd have extensive case precedent of convictions where such evidence was important. I've never seen any posted.
I like to worry about things as much as the next guy, but the odds a vanishingly small that any of this will ever affect any of us.
Jimmy Whizbang, Certifiable Trainer: "Now if you guys are going to carry a gun for self-defense, after you load your magazines with your factory-produced self-defense ammo, strip one round out of each mag. Place that round in a plastic bag along with a card showing manufacturer, bullet weight, lot number, inspector's initials, social security number, and your combined shoe size -- if filing jointly. Vacuum-seal the bag and bury it, encased in concrete, at the foot of an oak tree by the light of a full moon. Do this for ever box of carry ammo you buy. Remember to rotate your carry ammo hourly...
Of course, if you're not comfortable carrying reloads, don't. If you find carry ammo you like, buy it! Why not? Personally, most of what I carry is factory stuff. But I like some of my loads better than the factory choices I can easily find, so I'll carry those, too. But, I suppose, I would be pretty easily able to provide the exact load data used to make it, should I ever need to provide such in court.
-Sam
Something else to think about, even if its a good shoot and you have np in reguards to crimal court, it still may come back to bite you in civil court. Lets just say for the sake of argument you JHP does not expand and goes thru the bad guy and hits some one else. You can bet that the lawyer of the bistander is going to bring that up in court. That would pretty much be a death blow in that case. If it was factory ammo, you could argue it was not your fualt it was ammo manufactors.
higene
Member
Dumb and dumber
Has anyone heard of loading .38 hollow base WC backwards for snub nose .38s (with maybe 7 gr. Unique)?
Has anyone heard of the effectiveness of this practice?
Higene
Has anyone heard of loading .38 hollow base WC backwards for snub nose .38s (with maybe 7 gr. Unique)?
Has anyone heard of the effectiveness of this practice?
Higene
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Horse ...(uh)... radish!
There's no chance in he!! that argument would hold any sway with any jury. "I shot the BG but the bullet passed through and hit someone else...but I'd planned on the bullet expanding and stopping before exiting, therefore it's not my fault!" Right. You're responsible for all the bullets that leave your gun. Period.
If you'd said that -- maybe -- if you load hotter than an equivalent factory load you might have some explaining to do, maybe...perhaps...I guess. But only in that some shyster could say that such showed some kind of undue desire to shoot someone, or similar hogwash.
But to claim that it wasn't your fault the factory bullet didn't expand? That the ammo factory is liable for the dead bystander? Hopefully your lawyer would be smarter than to let you say that on the stand!
Really, would you do that? In these days of people suing the gun manufacturers for "gun violence?" You'd blame the manufacturer for your bad shot?
-Sam
No, my point was it is mitigating factor. Civil court is all about shades of grey. Its pretty black and white if you made the ammo...
Atleast the other way gives you a chance. Granted your going to lose anyways, the diffrence is, how much you lose.
You would be shocked at what has been successfully argued in court.
Atleast the other way gives you a chance. Granted your going to lose anyways, the diffrence is, how much you lose.
You would be shocked at what has been successfully argued in court.
Check out this old thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=396040&.
And here's a hint: I have over thirty years experience practicing law, and I will not use handloads for self defense.
You, of course, can do as you wish. It's not my problem.
And here's a hint: I have over thirty years experience practicing law, and I will not use handloads for self defense.
You, of course, can do as you wish. It's not my problem.
Sheldon J
Member
Actually I look at it as more of a reliability issue... Yeah I know all you reloaders out there... perfect record.... I have reloaded over 500,000 rounds with out a single failure but I still trust the Factory P+ over my own reloads, and theirs are more environment proof...
The Lone Haranguer
Member
Sam: I was referring to changes made in powder blend, etc. by the manufacturer. A given cartridge made, say, five years ago may not have exactly the same ingredients as one made today.
rscalzo
Member
That started back in the late 60's. I tried it but accuracy past a few years was not great to say the least.
SCBradley
Member
I carry reloads now. At today's prices that's my only reasonable choice.
Has anyone heard of loading .38 hollow base WC backwards for snub nose .38s (with maybe 7 gr. Unique)?
Has anyone heard of the effectiveness of this practice?
7 grs of Unique is way too hot of a load for a 38 spl first of all.
I tried the reveresed wadcutters in the 70s and found them unreliable in expansion. Sometimes one side of the hollowbase would shear off and the round would continue on basically as a solid.
Has anyone heard of the effectiveness of this practice?
7 grs of Unique is way too hot of a load for a 38 spl first of all.
I tried the reveresed wadcutters in the 70s and found them unreliable in expansion. Sometimes one side of the hollowbase would shear off and the round would continue on basically as a solid.
Would you really expect to?
The vast majority of criminal cases involving violence, and most civil cases, are tried in county courts. There are over three thousand counties in the United States. In the more populous counties, there are several courts in session at any one time. Many larger county courts have cases in session all of the time.
Some of the trials go on for a very long time indeed.
The transcripts are not published. No one enters the details into a central database. The only time much information of a trial shows up in print or broadcast media is when there's a celebrity involved or the case is in some manner sensational--and even then the details are scant by any measure.
The only searchable data involving trial court cases are contained in appellate court rulings on said cases, and the details of such rulings only involve the specific issues that were in fact appealed and ruled upon.
It seems to be an increasingly common misconception these days that because someone cannot find information about an occurrence by searching the internet, said occurrence obviously must not have happened.
That's simply not a valid conclusion.
That's true. The likelihood that the issue will ever come up is remote. The issue is the potential significance of the consequences.
Kinda like having a fire extinguisher, a carbon monoxide detector, or a radon detector. Very rarely used but invaluable when the need arises.
That's simple risk management.
Misses the point entirely. Other forensic evidence, such as minute markings on a bullet, may be used to tie a fatal bullet to a particular gun. Still other evidence, such as fingerprints and ownership records, may be used to tie the shooter to the gun.
The most common use of GSR evidence is to prove that a shooter did in fact fire a gun within a reasonably short time interval.
But as you say, that's not in question in a self defense shooting.
One thing that may be in question is the distance at which the shot was fired. If the distance is measured in terms of a few feet, the shooter's contention that he was in imminent danger and fired out of necessity may be believable. If the distance was longer, the credibility of his argument may be considered suspect by the detectives, the charging authority, a grand jury, and/or a trial court jury.
And that's where GSR evidence may come in and where the admissibility of comparative scientific forensic trace evidence to support the defendant's case may prove important.
Now, if the other evidence (assuming that it exists) is clear cut, there shouldn't be a problem. Corroborating witness testimony, security camera records, etc. could make the case. It is when the evidence is non-existent, inconclusive ("I heard a shot and saw that man standing over the victim") or unfavorable ("the man was standing way over there by the car and just asked for directions, and then the defendant pulled a gun and shot him down") that the need may arise.
But if you want to choose to take the chance anyway, Fiddletown put it succinctly:
You can't buy one box of factory defensive rounds just to keep things cleaner if you end up in court?
That's what I do.
I don't plink with the stuff.
For those who believe in "training with what you carry", you can't tell the difference between LSWCs and Barnes hollowpoints when you shoot the gun, if they're loaded to similar spec's.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
This is much less about guns'n'ammo than it is about opinions and psychology of prosecutors, juries and lawyers.
Seems to me that if it is of concern because of a local political environment, a person oughta find out what kind of ammo is used by local law enforcement. Then, if there's ever a self-defense shooting, you merely comment, "Hey, I use the same stuff as the cops."
Built into that argument is that such ammo is approved by the mayor, the city council and the chief of police. Otherwise, the cops wouldn't use it. Game the system into working for you.
Seems to me that if it is of concern because of a local political environment, a person oughta find out what kind of ammo is used by local law enforcement. Then, if there's ever a self-defense shooting, you merely comment, "Hey, I use the same stuff as the cops."
Built into that argument is that such ammo is approved by the mayor, the city council and the chief of police. Otherwise, the cops wouldn't use it.
Game the system into working for you.- Status
