Reloading for the M1A - why the warning?

[raindog]

I'm reading Joe Poyer's "The M14-Type Rifle: A Shooter's and Collector's Guide" to learn more about my M1A. In the section on handloading he writes:

"If you are a novice reloader, DON'T. First, gain a great deal of experience before reloading for any gas-operated military rifle. For gas-operated military rifles to operate reliably requires a cooperative partnership between the rifle manufacturer and the ammunition manufacturer in the way of very strict specifications for both. If your handloads do not meet the specifications set for the rifle/ammunition combination, you are playing with fire - or in this case, a bomb. If you are an experienced handloader, study the descripription of M14 match ammunition manufacturing process given above and note where it is imperative that you hold yourself to very strict standards. Many experts on the M14 flatly stat ethat you should not reload commercial cases for the M14. The author suggests that you would be wise to listen to them."

From the way he writes, it sounds like he'd have the same misgivings about reloading .223 for an AR-15.

I'm aware that there a difference between civilian .308 and military 7.62x51 though it also appears to be a topic of endless discussion. However, setting that aside...is there really any reason to NOT reload for an M1A?

 

[ReloaderFred]

I load for both my National Match and Standard M1A's, and have for many, many years. I bought my NM M1A in 1987 or 88, and have been loading for it ever since. Maybe he means "he" shouldn't load for "his" M1A.......

As long as you produce quality ammunition, made to original specifications, and use a powder appropriate to the rifle, I don't see a problem. I began loading in 1963 for an M1 Garand, and that was how I learned to load.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[jr_roosa]

You're right...you can blow up ARs, garands, aks, or m1 carbines with handloads if you don't know what you are doing. Nothing special about the m1a/m14 in that respect.

Basically if you can close the bolt and if you are in the ballpark on powder weight with the right powder in a bolt gun the gun will likely stay together even if things are not quite right. Worst case is head separation (unpleasant and bad for the rifle, but probably not life or limb threatening), wrong powder (life and limb threatening), or a squib followed by a live round (unpleasant and catastrophic for the rifle).

In a gas gun you have all that plus the chance of a round going off with the action unlocked which will blow apart the rifle, spray hot gasses and brass in the general direction of your face and fingers, and maybe send the bolt up your nose.

Commercial and gi loads have quality control that reduces the risk somewhat. An experienced reloader might be able to do even better. An inexperienced reloader can goof up some non-obvious things and get in pretty deep.

Google reloads and garand or m1a and you'll get plenty of food for thought.

J.

 

[MCMXI]

I just bought an M1A Scout and will start loading for it soon just as I do for all of my other rifles. Headspace is important but it's easy to control and measure, so any competent reloader should be able to assemble safe and accurate loads for the M1A. The M1A is the first rifle I've bought that comes with the headspace dimension written on a label ... 1.631".

I use Redding's excellent Instant Indicator Headspace and Bullet Comparator for all of my rifle cases to measure headspace after firing and after resizing. For the .308 Win, the SAAMI set up gage is 1.630" which is the SAAMI minimum chamber dimension. I bump the shoulders back to SAAMI - 0.001" for my bolt rifle (Lapua brass) but I also use Redding Competition shell holders which come in 0.002" height increments so it'll be easy enough to bump the shoulder back to SAAMI - 0.003" if necessary. Given that the M1A chamber is 1.631" or 0.001" over the SAAMI minimum, 0.002" to 0.004" shoulder set back will be fine. Here's the warning label that came attached to the rifle ... it should help answer your question.

 

[Grumulkin]

So, who is Joe Poyer? He sounds like a retard. I'll try to remember never to buy his book.

ANY gun can be a bomb if handloads are over accepted pressure. It doesn't mean a novice can't reload for a semi-auto but DOES mean that a novice should be conservative and stick religiously to published data. You can get by with more from a strong bolt action than you can with a semi-auto, lever action, pump or revolver and the pressure signs in the latter are different than in a bolt action. If you go overpressure, you can damage your gun or worse yet you.

 

[243winxb]

I seem to remember something about not loading with powder with a slow burning rate. Something to do with breaking the operating arm or rod ????? Read here "Powder and Port Pressure" http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf I shot an M14 on full auto, great fun. But i dont own one.

 

[bullseye308]

I don't own one of these, but I have followed enough threads about loading for one to know that the most important thing is to find the threads that discussed his here and read them. There is enough knowledge and experience floating around this board that you will get any answer you need pretty quickly.

Don't rely on experts, they are more biased than enyone here.

 

[Slamfire]

I have not had problems with commercial cases, but 95% of my M1a shooting has been with LC. I understand IMI is excellent heavy brass, I have only 20-30 of those cases, and they shoot well.

I highly recommend, personally I think it should be considered mandatory, a cartridge head space gage:



Size your brass to gage minimum.

I recommend as a sizing die a small based die, the RCBS small base X Die is becoming popular. You need a good sizing lubricant, spray on lubes are inadequate, I use RCBS water soluble or Imperial Sizing wax.

The M1a/M1 has a free floating firing pin. That firing pin is tapping the heck out of the primer all the way down to bolt closure. Every so often a slamfire happens. The reason you want to small base size to gage minimum is so there is absolutely no delay to bolt closure. If you are going to have a slamfire you want an in battery slamfire. An out of battery slamfire will ruin a rifle.

I believe these were out of battery slamfires:





Trim your cases, I trim to 2.0”, a nice easy number to remember.

It is a good idea to ream your primer pockets to depth. It is extremely important not to have high primers. So, always hand prime, and always inspect each case so the primer is below the case head.

Commercial primers are very sensitive. Most of the out of battery slamfires I heard of, and the two I had with Garands, were with Federal match primers. These are the most sensitive primers on the market. Use the least sensitive primers you can find. CCI is the only company offering “mil spec’ primers, the CCI#34.

The M14 was developed using IMR4895 as a propellant. IMR4895/AA2495/H4895 are similar, these should be your first choice of powders. Use nothing faster than IMR 3031 or slower than IMR 4064.




This rifle was designed to be used with a powder that had the pressure decay you see in the inset of this diagram. A little faster decline is fine, a little slower is bad.



A match winning load is going to be 168 SMK, a charge between 40.5grs to 41.5 grains IMR 4895 LC case, CCI#34 primers, OAL LT 2.80”

Keep your velocity averages with a 150 at or below 2700 fps.

Keep your velocities with a 168 between 2550 and 2625 fps.

Keep your 175 SMK velocities between 2550 and 2600 fps.

Shoot nothing heavier than the 175 SMK.

 

[krs]

Good post Slamfire. I do believe you're on top of this subject from our previous discussions and this affirms that prior belief.

In saying

Slamfire1:"The M1a/M1 has a free floating firing pin. That firing pin is tapping the heck out of the primer all the way down to bolt closure."

and:

"It is a good idea to ream your primer pockets to depth. It is extremely important not to have high primers. So, always hand prime, and always inspect each case so the primer is below the case head"

I think you've given the most often overlooked element that results in reloading related mishaps.

I'd only add the advise to use a primer pocket uniformer (not a pocket cleaner) which deepens the pocket to a consistent depth allowing for seating to a consistent .006" -.0012" depth of primer face below case head surface.

Anyone who cares to can make up a set of dummy rounds with live primers to cycle through an M1/M1A and see for themselves that there will be a indented mark on each primer with correctly formed ammunition and an in spec rifle. This is result of the free floating firing pin and the back/forth nature of the semi-auto operation. Once a person sees that they shouldn't be able to help but wake to the fact that the spacings and primer seating depths are critical for happy long term use of the rifles, and if one of the primers pops then even the staunchest ignorant reloader who believes as so many do that he knows it all might recognize that he's got a problem.. Well, one can only hope so I guess.

It's not usually overloads, or heavy bullets, or headspacing per se that cause unfortunate episodes, it is careless reloading as it pertains to the careful positioning of each primer.

Joe Poyer is hardly a 'retard'. Anyone who would call him that sees an ignoramus in his mirror in the morning.

 

[Slamfire]

Good post Slamfire. I do believe you're on top of this subject from our previous discussions and this affirms that prior belief

Thanks.

Getting "blowed up good", which twice happened to me, you either do your research, or you should walk away.

 

[krs]

Yeah, those look like healthy blows giving ruined rifles. Hope you escaped any similar personal damage?

 

[MCMXI]

SlamFire1, I'd also like to thank you for your post. I was wondering which powder to use since I have over 30lb of IMR 4895, Reloder 15 and Varget. I think you answered that one for me. As for the primers, I'm going to use CCI 200 since that is what I have and that's what I can get. I prime all cases using the RCBS primer tube system and check that EVERY primer is recessed into the primer pocket.

You mentioned that everyone should have a cartridge headspace gauge ... I agree with that too. I'm a big fan of Redding's version ... my groups have shrunk considerably since using them. I don't like guessing and Redding's Instant Indicator Case Comparator eliminates all of that. I wonder how many reloaders know how much shoulder set back they're getting from their full-length or body dies. They might be surprised at what they find once they start measuring it. Using Redding competition shell holders, neck sizing die and a body die, I'm able to control the headspace of resized cases within 0.001" i.e. SAAMI to SAAMI - 0.001". That's significantly better than Lapua new factory brass from the same lot which varies by as much as 0.004".

On a side note, I've never read or heard about a similar firing pin issue with the Mini-14 which is based on the M14/M1A. Without taking the two bolts apart, I assume this means that the Mini-14 firing pin arrangement is different.

Here are a couple of photos showing Redding's Instant Indicator Case Comparator in action ...

 

[Ret.CWO]

Loading for M1A1

Ive been loading for my NM since about 1980. Used Pulled Mil. boat tail and(147-150) 4895 pulled surplus powder. I trim to the Hornady recommendation and full length resize. I been using 43Gr. even. Not a maxium load but fun to plink with. Not less than 250 rounds a year times times 29 years 7,250 rounds . LC brass. No complaint. To each his own. Trim:2.005 COL:2.790

 

[longdayjake]

Slam fires do happen, but its not usually a primer seating issue. Its usually from getting too much gunk in your firing pin hole and it keeps the firing pin from floating like it should. It is also caused by using match primers or bench rest primers which are known to be extremely sensitive. Regardless of how your primer is seated, the firing pin is going to bump it. If you keep your bolt clean and you use good solid primers like CCI you should be fine reloading. That said, seat your primers well anyway.

 

[Canuck-IL]

It is also caused by using match primers or bench rest primers which are known to be extremely sensitive

Not so - in fact, the opposite. For ARs, Rem 7 1/2s are their 'bench rest' SR primers and they are well known to have a significantly harder cup than the standard 6 1/2s. CCI 41s, so called 'milspec,' are even harder ... and the Wolff magnum SRs are reputedly good to go while their standard small rifle pierce too easily.

CCI Benchrest and Rem 7 1/2s are the most commonly used primers in highpower.
/Bryan

 

[Radaray]

Quote:
It is also caused by using match primers or bench rest primers which are known to be extremely sensitive

Not so - in fact, the opposite. For ARs, Rem 7 1/2s are their 'bench rest' SR primers and they are well known to have a significantly harder cup than the standard 6 1/2s. CCI 41s, so called 'milspec,' are even harder ... and the Wolff magnum SRs are reputedly good to go while their standard small rifle pierce too easily.

CCI Benchrest and Rem 7 1/2s are the most commonly used primers in highpower.
/Bryan

That's right. Remington will tell you to use the 7 1/2 (not their 6 1/2) primer in the ARs. Too bad I didn't know that before I bought a thousand of the 6 1/2 because I bought what I could find. Now I'm stuck using them for handgun ammo. BTW, they work fine in my S&W model 28 without doing anything special except checking for excessive pressure (there was none noticable, but they are all midrange loads, nothing near maximum) . Also might point out that military ammo has the primers crimped in place. That tells me to check how tight the primers feel when seating them. If they feel loose, maybe it's a good idea to void that one in the autos.

 

[Rollis R. Karvellis]

This brings up the question of why have a floating firing pin on a semi auto anyway?

 

[longdayjake]

Not so - in fact, the opposite. For ARs, Rem 7 1/2s are their 'bench rest' SR primers and they are well known to have a significantly harder cup than the standard 6 1/2s. CCI 41s, so called 'milspec,' are even harder ... and the Wolff magnum SRs are reputedly good to go while their standard small rifle pierce too easily.

Okay, this may be correct for rem 7 1/2 primers, but does that mean its true in all bench rest primers? What about winchester, federal, and CCI? I personally avoid bench rest primers in my semi autos simply because I know for a fact that some are more sensitive. I am glad to know that 7 1/2 are good to go for small rifle, but what about their large rifle primers? Isn't that what we are talking about anyway? Be careful about telling others that what I said is untrue just because it happens to be untrue with one particular primer. Someone could get hurt following your poor reply to my post. Next time make sure you don't group all match primers together. Or you may be part of someone elses story like this one...

Commercial primers are very sensitive. Most of the out of battery slamfires I heard of, and the two I had with Garands, were with Federal match primers. These are the most sensitive primers on the market. Use the least sensitive primers you can find. CCI is the only company offering “mil spec’ primers, the CCI#34.

Remember that small rifle and large rifles are a completely different beast.

 

[Slamfire]

This brings up the question of why have a floating firing pin on a semi auto anyway?

To reduce part count. Every part adds unreliability and cost. You have to build it, ship it, store it, keep track of it. The less parts the better.

I am certain that when John Garand designed his rifle, he thought he had a very safe rifle. I believe the receiver bridge was designed to cam the firing pin back during extraction, and was thought to prevent contact with the primer during feed.

However, after fielding the rifle, the US Army experienced slamfires. So the receiver bridge was not working as predicted.

And it never has.

I can say this certainty because of the existence of an artifact: the round Garand firing pin.





This firing pin is so rare, that Orion 7 was said to have them at $100.00 apiece. They were sold out by the time I heard this. Nothing is known about these firing pins other than they are rare and exist.

But the fact they exist is telling. All of the Garand firing pins I have ever seen were scalloped. That is the center section has material removed. This feature continued on the M14.

So why add extra machining, (which ain’t free) which also weakens the firing pin?

To lighten the firing pin.

Because lighting the firing pin reduces impact energy and reduces the chances of a slamfire. Which is exactly what the US Army did with the M16 firing pin when that rifle experienced slamfires.

So I can conclude that the Garand experienced slamfires, with period service ammunition, and that is why the round firing pin is so rare. They were replaced. This happened so long ago, that there is no living memory of the events. But the artifact remains.

 

[GW Staar]

Reloading for service rifles is NOT the same as loading for bolt guns.

Sierra launched a site called Exteriorballistics.com. On the site they have a lot of reprinted material from their latest Sierra Handbook. One chapter is dedicated to reloading for semi-autos and service rifles. It ought to be required reading for anybody contemplating reloading for those rifles. That very chapter is found on the new site, here> http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm

As everyone knows, gun manufacturers all frown on reloads because they have no control over what some less informed person is going to shoot out of their guns, and they all have been sued by such incompetents. Fulton Armory is no exception, but his "scary" article about why we shouldn't reload for gas guns is good to read, because it "reminds," very graphically, what the risk really is. The part where he says, "If you're going to reload for gas guns....." and explains what you'd better do...is worth printing and keeping and referring to. Here's that article: http://www.fulton-armory.com/ReloadingThoughts.htm Scary as he sounds, the same could be said for all reloading if it's not done safely, by those who have acquired the necessary knowledge and experience, and the common sense to use it in a quiet, non-interrupted, non-disruptive environment.

In a nut shell...Pay Attention to Details and don't load Distracted.

 

[MCMXI]

GW Staar,
That's a very useful link that you provided to Sierra's exterior ballistics section. I won't be single/manually feeding any rounds during load development based on what I read.

 

[Noveldoc]

Just some thoughts on what I do for a Garand. Similar bolt setup as you know.

I can't get 4895 but Varget works fine. You need the powder to burn fast and clean enough that you do not clog the gas port in the barrel.

I use Wolff large rifle magnum primers. Wolffs are a bit oversized so they grip the pocket well and you can set them very precisely. I make sure the loads stay at least 10% below max for safety. The thicker magnum primer cup gives me a sense of security re: slam fires, etc.

My 30 06 Garand likes 45 grains Varget under a pulled GI surplus 308 bullet with the above primer. Cheap and quite accurate for me. I load until the case mouth is near the top of the cannelure and throw on a bit of crimp. I crimp until some of the case mouth is in the cannelure and I can feel just the tiniest hair of the edge when I run my finger along the bullet. The round spaces OK in my rifle with this.

Of course, check manuals and look for pressure signs in your gun.

Tom

 

[BornAgainBullseye]

its different down here! I can get buckets of 4895, but no VARGET..... wanna trade?

 

[Noveldoc]

Weird, BAB. I am right next door in Bama.

Lotsa folks here own Garands so maybe that is the difference. Apparently the Private Ryan special is just the thing for blowing up Bambie's mom. Dey don't call him BAM-bie for nuthin'.

Tom

 

[dmazur]

I just spent some time uniforming primer pocket depth in a bunch of new Winchester brass I'm going to reload for a Garand. This is to guarantee that primers are set a couple thousandths below flush.

I'm trying to learn this stuff, so I was paying attention to how much brass was cut. It wasn't the same. Variation was slight, but noticeable. Also, the pockets were not square until after treatment with the tool.

I am going to feel a lot more comfortable about primer seating depth now.

This is one aspect of reloading for M1A / M1's. I just added it to my list.

I am a believer in the "There's reloading, and then there's reloading for gas guns" statement.