Reloads are tumbling

[FUBAR63]

Hey everyone. i looked and could not find any previous solution on THR for this so i thought id throw it out. Why would my .380 reloads be tumbling? This is the first 380 reloads I have processed and they are definitely tumbling per the holes they are leaving in my targets. what would cause this? Im shooting my wife's ruger LCP. My first guess would be under powered (there was a distinctively lighter report from these loads then the factory loads i was shooting earlier in the day). They don't seem to be be seated crooked in the case??? I am at a loss to explain this.

 

[amflyer]

Hi Walt,

Do you mean "sans" or "via" the holes in the target?

If your seeing a less than round hole in the target, it may just be the ragged hole the auto-type profile bullets leave.

Other possibilities would be really, really bad fouling/leading of the rifling or a bullet that's not meant for 380 acp, like maybe a 147 gr 9mm slug.

If you're running the action OK on the pistol, you're probably not too underpowered. What's the load and the bullet weight? What kind of accuracy are you getting?

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Based on the "lighter report" observation I'd think they were not hot enough to stabilize in flight. I know some of my first .32 acp loads key holed but were still hot enough to function the slide in a blow back gun. Subsequent load development and a much hotter load cured the key holing.

Or you might be shooting an improperly sized bullet.

More details...what bullet, what gun, etc.

VooDoo

 

[Potatohead]

A fella on here the other day thought this was happening to him but it was actually that his target wasnt stapled to a backing, and it was causing tumble-like shapes when his bullets went through the paper.

 

[longdayjake]

In order to give you a better answer I need a couple of things.

1. What bullet were you using?
2. What die setup do you reload with?
3. Are you crimping?

 

[Schwing]

As already stated, more info is needed to really speculate. What bullet and load are you using?

Without that info, my default suspicions have already been stated, underpowered loads or a badly leaded barrel.

 

[murf]

roll a loaded round on a flat surface to see if the bullet is seated straight. it shouldn't wobble.

murf

 

[Hk Dan]

Bigger question--did you reset or re-crimp the bullets in question?

 

[Sunray]

Cast or jacketed? What load?
Bullets key hole due to being undersized or an oversized barrel or not enough velocity. Cast bullets will key hole if there's no lube too. Sounds like you need to up the load.
The word 'sans' means 'without' or 'no'.

 

[FUBAR63]

Cast or jacketed? What load?
Bullets key hole due to being undersized or an oversized barrel or not enough velocity. Cast bullets will key hole if there's no lube too. Sounds like you need to up the load.
The word 'sans' means 'without' or 'no'.

I've loaded a 100 gn FMJ with 3.5 gns of SR4756, CCI Small pistol primer
Im using Lee classic press, lee dies and finishing with a Lee crimp die.
They are feeding a Ruger LCP that has had maybe 1500 rounds through it as its my wife's and is practically new. I dont believe it is the target as the factory rounds i was shooting as well were leaving perfectly symmetric holes.

 

[TfflHndn]

Make sure you are not overcrimping with the FCD, and deforming the bullet. Can you post a pic of the finished round?

 

[Ex]

Bullets key hole due to being undersized or an oversized barrel or not enough velocity.

I have to challenge this one just a touch. Yes most of the points have been hit on.

I have had and seen others have issues with soft, plated projectiles.

My experiences with this was using Berrys plated, 9mm RNP 115 gn.
Originally I had built the rounds I had problem with at midrange loads with TiteGroup.
When I lowered the charge, they flew straight. At mid range, these loads where peeling
the thin copper plate off in the bore. Lowering the charge/velocity allowed the projectile time to "get its spin", resulting in much less debris in the barrels and straight flight.

These results were observed in a Beretta 92FS and a HighPoint C9. Had the problem only appeared in the HighPoint, I might have attributed it to the pistol. Since it was in both and was cured by slowing down just a touch...

Edit: I have not/did not slug the barrels since this yielded the same result in both pistols and occurred in two different batches of Berrys, both 115 gn.

Welcome comments to this finding!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Are you using a soft paper target without a solid backer? Many time over the years on this forum reloaders thought their loads were key-holing and it was only the lack of a solid backer behind the target.

I agree if you are crimping too much you may be breaking through the plating and deforming the bullet. Check that too if you are using a solid target backer.

 

[Potatohead]

He said the factory rounds were leaving a normal hole, so his backing must be ok.

 

[JoePfeiffer]

He said the factory rounds were leaving a normal hole, so his backing must be ok.

Similarly, it seems unlikely to be a leaded barrel. If it's working with factory but not reloads, the problem sort of has to be with the reloads.

 

[Blue68f100]

I've loaded a 100 gn FMJ with 3.5 gns of SR4756, CCI Small pistol primer
Im using Lee classic press, lee dies and finishing with a Lee crimp die.

You say FMJ. are these plated? If so loose the LFCD if they are and just use the std TC. Also may want to slug your barrel. So many barrels these day are over size.

 

[rcmodel]

and finishing with a Lee crimp die.

Measure your completed rounds at the case mouth.

They should measure about .373".

If less then that?
Too much taper-crimp will squish the bullets undersize for the bore.

rc

 

[FUBAR63]

Here is a pic of one of the finished rounds. There is nothing that stands out that is out of the ordinary on any of the rounds??

 

[Ex]

Fubar,

Knock one apart with a kinetic hammer puller. Examine the pulled projectile to make sure crimp is not squishing the bullet.

 

[Robert101]

I'm just guessing here:
1. You mentioned SR4756, 3.5 grains. My Sierra Manual shows loads for SR7625 @ 3.7 grains max. Is there a chance that your powder is the wrong type? I only say this because my manual does not list your SR4756 powder.
2. If the report of the round is very weak, the 100 grain bullet may not have sufficient velocity to stabilize the round. The was mentioned also by another poster.
3. I'd use a cardboard backer just to make certain this bullet is not simply tearing the paper. Some round nose bullets traveling at slow speeds will not make a well defined hole in un-backed paper targets. It is a 380 velocity remember and at 100 grain bullet you could be well short of 900 fps.
So I guess I would re-check the powder and if acceptable in the manual, increase speed/velocity. Just a wild guess.

 

[FUBAR63]

You say FMJ. are these plated? If so loose the LFCD if they are and just use the std TC. Also may want to slug your barrel. So many barrels these day are over size.

Well I have tried to use only the 3 die set by Lee for the 380 previously and use the seating die to try and crimp the bullet. what continued to happen and eventually drove me to buy a crimp die was that either I would not crimp the bullet enough and i could physically push the bullet down in the case with my thumb OR I would crimp it and deform the brass mouth. i could never find the sweet spot....so I opted for a crimp die. I'm gonna break one down this afternoon and see if the bullet base is indeed squeezed.

 

[rcmodel]

Taper crimp does not & can not hold the bullet in place.

Proper case neck tension is what holds the bullet from slipping back in the case.

If you are taper-crimping tight enough to hold the bullet, you are squishing the bullet down.

1. Measure your case mouth as I said in post #17. It should measure no less then .373".

2. Measure your expander stem, and see if it measures at least .003" smaller then bullet diameter?
My RCBS expander measures only .350", doesn't expand the case at all, and works perfectly for no-slip bullet seating.

If yours is bigger then .352", chuck it in a drill and work it down with a strip of emery cloth.

rc

 

[FUBAR63]

Taper crimp does not & can not hold the bullet in place.

Proper case neck tension is what holds the bullet from slipping back in the case.

If you are taper-crimping tight enough to hold the bullet, you are squishing the bullet down.

1. Measure your case mouth as I said in post #17. It should measure no less then .373".

2. Measure your expander stem, and see if it measures at least .003" smaller then bullet diameter?
My RCBS expander measures only .350", doesn't expand the case at all, and works perfectly for no-slip bullet seating.

If yours is bigger then .352", chuck it in a drill and work it down with a strip of emery cloth.

rc

This makes sense. Ill pull the die apart later today and check it out. I have had the dies and components to build .380's for months now, but gave up because as i stated earlier, every time I would finish the rounds, i could physically push the bullet down into the case. Ill measure the case mouth before and after die, measure the bullet base, measure the expander and then see where im at. Even if this is not the tumbling reason, it is an issue that i have needed to resolve....thanx RC

 

[Catpop]

TSTS=Too slow to stabilize. Saw it happen just last week. Catpop

 

[FUBAR63]

Update

All,
I appreciate all the advice i got last month on the 380 issue, but things have not gotten any better although i believe i have narrowed down the issue. I shot some 9MM i loaded (in the new Lee press) and they shot fine so i know the tumbling issue is relegated exclusively to my 380 reloads and not the press (as i expected). What i think is happening is that the 380 bullet is sitting in the case so lightly that when i shoot a round and the new round is cycled into the chamber, its pushing the bullet down in the case so that when its shot, there is some distance between the start of the rifling and the bullet itself. I took apart a factory Winchester 380 load (100 grain) and the bullet base is .357 which is substantially larger than the bullets im trying to reload (.355). From what i can caliper, the ID of the sized 380 brass is .351 so that .04 delta is not enough to hold the round. Its almost like the once fired 380 brass case walls are to thin....Once sized, the OD of the sized cases are .370. I can take the winchester bullet apart and reload that bullet in my once fired cases and it seats fine (very firmly). I have also separated the seat and crimp stages so now i am seating the round with my lee seating die and then performing a taper crimp with a lee crimp die as the 4th stage. Man i am completely baffled by this???