Reloads not loading in 9mm - setup help.

[John_Q]

Just started reloading and am having problems with rounds not fitting properly in the chamber. If I remove the chamber from the gun and put a round in its gets stuck. I've been reading up a few books and it looks like its not crimping correctly.

It must be my setup as I"m new to reloading but can't figure out how to fix it.

I've got a 2nd hand Hornady pro-jector loading press with a mix and match of dies. The deprimer station is working fine. I've setup the expander die so there is a slight bell for the bullet. This looks fine too.

Station 4 is a Hornady Seater 9mm (100_7441.jpg)
Station 5 is a RCBS 9mm LU Seat #3 78 (100_7440.jpg)

First of all will this setup work?

On the Hornady seater I adjusted the die so that it just touches the plate, and then adjust the top knob for depth. (28mm - PMP brass with Josyd 115gr 9mm bullet)

On the RCBS die I've adjusted the die so it touches the plate and then done one turn back. Whats does the spindle on top adjust? If I move it down too much then it pushes the bullet further into the case. No matter what adjustments I do here, it doesn't seem to have any effect.

The last pic of of the round in the chamber.

Where am I going wrong?

 

[MtnCreek]

Station 4 is a Hornady Seater 9mm (100_7441.jpg)
Station 5 is a RCBS 9mm LU Seat #3 78 (100_7440.jpg)

Sounds like you're running 2 seat dies. Only one should be used. Station 5 could be used for a dedicated crimp die.

On the RCBS die I've adjusted the die so it touches the plate and then done one turn back. Whats does the spindle on top adjust?

The top adjustment is for setting seating depth. Screw the seating die down till it touches a sized, belled, unprimed case. Then turn it back out about a half turn. Lock it in place. With the top adjustment turned out (up) all the way, insert a bullet and operate press. Measure the OAL and lower the top adjustment as needed. Continue doing this until the seated bullet gives your target length.

Next thing you will need to do is crimp. If doing this with the seating die, with the case/seated bullet in the shellholder, adjust the top adjustment (seating depth adjustment) back out a few turns. Loosen the die and screw it in till it touches the case mouth, then give it an additional 1/8 turn. Operate press and check the crimp. Continue doing this until proper crimp (which is not really a crimp w/ 9mm; you're just looking to remove the bell from sta 2). Once you have the proper crimp (and remember we're not really crimping!), lock the die in place and w/ the seated, crimped cartridge in the shellholder, adjust the top adjust (seater stem) till it touches the bullet.

Couple of possibilities:
Bullet is seated too long, causing the bullet of your loaded cartridge to hit the rifling. *Adjust bullet depth*
Too much crimp causing the case mouth to go past the chamber of your barrel. *Adjust crimp to Just remove bell*

 

[John_Q]

I think that's what was confusing me - so both are 9mm seating dies? Doh!

I've now removed station 5 (If its a seating die and not a taper crimping die do I now need to get a taper crimping die - I've read that for a 9mm you need them?) and adjusted like you suggested. I've also reduced the COL of the round and now it seems to fit a lot better in the chamber - almost loose.

I also came across this youtube video which explains it in detail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBRcUk7uRc8

 

[918v]

A good way to check crimp is to hold the round up against the sky and see the path of the case wall. You have to adjust the crimp die so you are not seeing any bell in the case mouth.

But you may have an OAL problem here. CZs have very short chamber throats and require bullets to be seated deep.

 

[rcmodel]

Either or both dies you have are seating & taper crimp dies.

Use one or the other, but not both.
(well you could seat in one station, and crimp in another, but thats just going to confuse you further now at this point)

Screwing either die down to contact the shell plate will give you excessive taper-crimp.

Follow MtnCreek's instructions to adjust the crimp, then adjust the seating depth, and you should be fine.

You want to adjust the crimp so the case mouth of a loaded round measures .376" with most brass and jacketed bullet combinations.


If still in doubt or still having problems?
Color a loaded round with a dry-erase marker and force it in the chamber.

Where the marker rubs off is your problem.

rc

 

[MtnCreek]

Your seater dies should taper crimp.

Adjust seating depth till a loaded (dummy) cartridge falls into and out of the chamber with it's own weight. Then re-assemble the pistol and cycle the dummy from the mag, into the chamber and out of the chamber. If that works, you should be good to go. The only other possible issue I can think of; I have loaded a cartridge to a length that functioned, but reduced my mag capisity by one. You won't know that until you've loaded enough ammo to fill the mag. It's not a big deal because at that point, you're still in the early phase of load development.

 

[918v]

You can use the second seater die to crimp. You don't need to buy another crimp die. Just back out the seater stem so it is not rocking the bullet while crimping.

 

[John_Q]

It seems the only way I get the round to fall in and out of the chamber is to apply a lot of crimp. Will I think its a lot of crimp - maybe its normal. I've removed the bullet and checked it after the crimp. Its not deformed but there is a ring around it from the crimp. Is that normal? If I apply less crimp them it sticks in the chamber.

 

[kingmt]

Something looks funny about your setup. It looks like a RCBS sizing die in one & a Lee sizing die in 2. I don't see a depriming pin in ether. Is that a RCBS expanding die in 3? How do you get your powder in? I assume that is the seating die in 5.

The sizing die in 1 should contact the shell plate at the top of the stroke. None of the other dies should contact the plate. If you have a factory round put it in 5 with the seating plug all the way out crank the die down against the factory round hard(by hand) until it stops then screw the seater in until it stops. This will give you a round close to that of the factory. Adjust as needed.

 

[John_Q]

S1 is the deprimer - the pin is there. S2 the expander. S3 - Ive removed the power measurer - just playing with the seating atm.
S4 - the seating die. I've removed S5.

It looks like I'm getting somewhere now. I've seated the bullet in even further and it doesnt require that much crimping now. I've set the COL to 27mm with little crimping and the round falls out now under its own weight.

 

[kingmt]

So are you saying this is a seating die? http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=161536&d=1332518223

 

[Jeff H]

What gun?

The Springfield XD and the CZ75 both require that lead bullets be seated pretty deep to clear the rifling.

 

[John_Q]

@kingmt - I"m using the RCBS as the seating die. I've removed the Lee. It appears both are seating dies - so I've removed one of them from S5.

Its a 9mm Browning HP.

Unfortunately I can't find any data on the bullets I have. What happens if you are under the COL? If its say 28mm and you load for 27mm?

 

[kingmt]

There is no difference between 27mm & 28mm just keep driving on for now.

I'm still confused from looking at your picture of the press. starting at the rear post I see a Lee sizing/depriming die, clockwise of that I see what looks like a RCBS expanding die, a empty, probably a seating die, & last looks like a RCBS sizing die. I understand these may have moved by now.

 

[John_Q]

Thanks - I'll try fire off a few rounds at 27mm.

You are correct in the identification of the dies. I think originally the last station was used as crimper. S4 and S5 both have seating dies in - I've now removed S5 and only have the seating die in S4.

 

[rcmodel]

In post #5, I said:

If still in doubt or still having problems?
Color a loaded round with a dry-erase marker and force it in the chamber.

Where the marker rubs off is your problem.

Did you do that???

rc

 

[rfwobbly]

I agree with all of the above. Except to add you seem to have BOTH the die adjustment and the OAL issue going on concurrently. To remain sane, you'll have to tackle them one issue at a time.

With your 5 station machine here's what I'd do....

► Adjust the dies first. Die adjustment (except for OAL) is set once and then hardly ever touched again. This is because you are trying to get the used brass to once again take the shape of the chamber. Once you achieve this, the chamber certainly isn't going to change, so neither should the major die adjustments.

Personally I would go with all the dies installed like you started with, but with some special adjustments. I think you have sizing and flaring down OK. See the cartoon below to understand what follows....



The die BODY (teal) works ONLY on the case, while the seating stem (red) ONLY works on the bullet depth.

• In position #4, set the die body to where the finished case mouth is measuring about .390". This is some reduction, but certainly not a finished taper crimp. The seating stem in position #4 will change for each new bullet shape. That's how you'll be setting the OAL. Don't worry about the stem now, just get the .390" at the mouth. The best way to do this is to make up some "test cartridges" with no powder and no primer.

• In position #5, you will not need a seating stem so you can completely remove it from the die. I'd do this to remind you that you are only using it's taper crimp capability. You want to adjust the die body on this die to produce the .376" dia case mouth that RC discussed above. Again, use your "test cartridges".

Remember the 9x19 cartridge is a tapered cartridge, so your crimp measurements are only made on the last 1/32" of the case, right where the bullet goes in.

Setting up like this will give you the best chances for smooth press operation.

► Finally, I'd set the seating stem to an OAL that allows the finished cartridge to drop into and back out of the chamber. The OAL will be different for each new bullet.

My advice would be to start with plated or jacketed bullets. Lead bullets are cheaper, but end up being slightly more ticklish for the new reloader since they are a larger diameter. After 6 months of loading one of the other types, you can then come back to the lead.

Hope this helps.

 

[greyling22]

Could you possibly just have a tight or dirty chamber? have you tried dropping a factory round in the chamber? does it stick? have you tried pulling out a set of calipers and measuring your loads against a factory round?

or, as usual, the easiest thing to do is try rcmodels suggestion of blackening the bullet/case and see what rubs off and go from there.

 

[918v]

What is the diameter of the bullet? Diameter and OAL both influence chambering. The bigger the diameter, the shorter the OAL needs to be.

 

[John_Q]

Ok - some progress. Just got back from the range. First to answer the questions above.

@rcmodel: I put a marker on the round and put it in the chamber, it came off ever so slightly above the mouth - see pic. I've marked it in red. (With OAL 1.060)

With a OAL of 1.100 the mark moves much higher up and it doesn't fit properly in the chamber. (pic 7455 and 7456)

@rfwobbly. Thanks. I've followed your advice and its a lot better but still some problems - see below. I think you might be onto something with the jacketed bullets. I'll try my luck there and see how it goes.

@greyling22/918v - the chamber is sparkly clean. It might be a tight chamber I guess? Don't know.

I've measured a new factory round (Lellier & Bellot 115gr FMJ - the mouth is 0.380)

Dropped a factory round in the chamber works fine - it doesn't stick at all.

I then checked it against my rounds (Although they are lead) - they are also .380 - .383

So I go to the range and have some success. The gun doesn't explode All the rounds fire off ok, and are fairly accurate. The only problem I am having now is none of the spent cases eject. I had to pull back the slider and then the brass popped out. It wasn't stuck in the chamber, kind of just lying there. Not sure why it didnt auto eject. If this from an OAL too long, or too short, or neither?

I fired a few rounds of the FMJ above - it works flawlessly and ejects every time.

2 more questions:
- If I now load my fired brass do you think it will work better and maybe eject the round? The fired brass I'm loading has never been fired in my gun before.

- I wonder if I will have any more luck with a FMJ round as opposed to a lead round?

I've setup all the rounds for an OAL of 1.060 - it fits in the chamber but it doesn't fall out like the factory round. Sticks every so slightly.

 

[Fatdaddy]

Just for giggles, make a dummy round and change nothing but the OAL. Seat the bullet even deeper in the case and see if the problem goes away.
Sounds like your getting into the rifling of the bbl to me.

 

[Walkalong]

Just for giggles, make a dummy round and change nothing but the OAL. Seat the bullet even deeper in the case and see if the problem goes away.
Sounds like your getting into the rifling of the bbl to me.

Like this.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678

Use one seater with the body backed off the shell plate two turns to seat. Use the stem to adjust seating depth as rfwobbly's diagram shows. In other words, adjusted so it cannot crimp, only seat.

Then use the second seater with the seating stem removed to crimp, adjusting the die body to do so.

 

[greyling22]

I agree with fatdaddy. try seating it deeper. From where your marks are showing up it looks like a bullet depth issue, not a crimp issue.

Also, for me, falling out of the chamber is a little over rated. As long as the ammo functions safely in the gun I'm happy. The key is safely. A very light sticking I'm ok with, you really don't want the round to prevent the slide from closing all the way and the gun to fire out of battery.

 

[rfwobbly]

Mr Q -
Progress on BOTH fronts, but you still have the same 2 issues.

► Taper Crimp. If you'll look at the diagram of a 9x19 Luger round in your reloading manual, you'll see the dimension ".380" there at the mouth of the case. That's the maximum allowable dimension at the case mouth. Obviously .382 exceeds this. Just like your pal RC told you, you need to be UNDER this dimension.

To be clear, .390 to .383" would be a good measurement coming out of the 4th die, but NOT on the finished cartridge coming out of the 5th die. Follow?

For any cartridge to fall into and then back out of the chamber it MUST be smaller than .379" and this point is VERY rigidly fixed in eternity. It might just as well been included on the tablets Moses brought down. Thou shalt not exceed .379" !! Close just ain't good enough. This is probably the finest adjustment you've ever made in your life, but it has to be done. It might be a bit of a headache, but if you do it right and set your lock rings there it will be the last time you have to fool with it.

► OAL. Wonderful photo. Thanks ever so much.

Generally speaking, new bullets can interfere with the chamber in 2 places....



Yours is striking on the ogive (like the example on the RH side in the cartoon) and is therefore remains much too long. Shorten the OAL by another .020" and try it again. You can never have the nose of the bullet resting on the rifling. It must be off by at least .005" on each and every round. Therefore (since all OALs vary by a small amount) you'll want the average cartridge to have from .010 to .015" clearance so that the longest cartridge you make still misses by some amount. Follow that ?

► Conclusion. Set the seating stem down another .020" and do the ink test again. AND Set die #5 down another 1/8 turn and try it again.

 

[John_Q]

@walkalong - I did as you suggested. Tried 3 different depths, 1.063, 1.043 and 1.023 - first seater adjusted the depth, the second seater crimped. All 3 result in the pic attached.

I'm beginning to think I have a faulty die!

Could it be my chamber is too tight to fire lead reloads? I"m going to go and get some FMJ on Monday anyway and try them out.