Reloads Shelf Life

[Catpop]

I ran into an interesting situation today. About 5 years ago a reloading buddy gave me some 30-06 reloads a reloading buddy had given him. Vintage unknown, but they were bright and shiny. He wasn’t shooting big rifles anymore so he gave them to me for components.
I found them them today, about 120 or so.
Most were marked loaded with 48 gr IMR 4064 under a Hornady 165 gr soft point to 3.330.
The powder weights weighed a little low around 45-46grains. But the really strange thing was the powder was clumped and sticking together. I’ve seen this before in older ammo, especially foreign military, but not 10-15 year old reloads.
Also one case separated leaving the neck attached to the bullet.
There was also some verdigris inside the case.
Any ideas?

 

[Mark_Mark]

I ran into an interesting situation today. About 5 years ago a reloading buddy gave me some 30-06 reloads a reloading buddy had given him. Vintage unknown, but they were bright and shiny. He wasn’t shooting big rifles anymore so he gave them to me for components.
I found them them today, about 120 or so.
Most were marked loaded with 48 gr IMR 4064 under a Hornady 165 gr soft point to 3.330.
The powder weights weighed a little low around 45-46grains. But the really strange thing was the powder was clumped and sticking together. I’ve seen this before in older ammo, especially foreign military, but not 10-15 year old reloads.
Also one case separated leaving the neck attached to the bullet.
There was also some verdigris inside the case.
Any ideas?

there was probably a little humidity stuck in the case. I bet it would fire just fine

 

[ballman6711]

Most were marked loaded with 48 gr IMR 4064 under a Hornady 165 gr soft point to 3.330.
The powder weights weighed a little low around 45-46grains.

His scale may have been a little off, but this would be my first clue. I always level and check my scale before putting powder in my brass. If he was off 2~3 grains of powder what else may he have done?

Not saying anything bad about your buddy's buddy, but did you/do you know him? I would pull all the rounds and clean/reuse the bullets, inspect the brass and reuse or trash as appropriate, maybe save and reuse the primers (given the current climate), and dispose of the powder.

chris

 

[Walkalong]

But the really strange thing was the powder was clumped and sticking together. I’ve seen this before in older ammo, especially foreign military, but not 10-15 year old reloads.
Also one case separated leaving the neck attached to the bullet.
There was also some verdigris inside the case.
Any ideas?

Scrap it, salvage the bullets if you can.

 

[troy fairweather]

Bad batch of powder, I had a box o 8mm mauser, go bad in 4-5 years. By 7 you could pinch the neck and crush it by hand. Some how powder goes bad.

 

[dartor]

When in doubt, toss it out. I'd save the bullets, cases and primers but the powder would have to go.

 

[bullseye308]

Weigh a few and see if they weigh the same or are all over the place. I wouldn’t shoot them personally, but I’d salvage what components I could.

 

[kill456]

I have seen this a few times in newer reloads. The person in question was using a water based bullet lube. In fact they were using the Unique paste lube and they had mixed the lube with water instead of the 99% rubbing alcohol the directions called for and it tainted the powder and corroded the Projo. I have no idea if this was the case just saying that when I have seen this that was the issue. He was supposed to break the Unique plastic container into 1/4 's and mix it with a 10oz bottle of 99% alcohol then after spraying it on said brass let it sit to evaporate for a few minutes so as to leave behind just the lube . They did it all EXCEPT they used water and it would not evaporate before he loaded the rounds and this picture above is what it looked like .
Side Bar ::: If anyone is interested the "correct" mixture of the Unique lube with 99% rubbing alcohol is an excellent and cheap way to make some very reasonably priced lube that will NOT taint your powder or corrode your projo's .
I am in agreement with the others . "When it doubt throw it out" That or break it down with your plastic mallet and make some new ones ;-) That is always fun to do !!

 

[kalielkslayer]

kill456 is probably right.

Me? Scrap everything. IMHO components aren’t that hard to get, even today. And I reload for quality, not cost.

 

[Catpop]

Just info
So I did break down the first box of 20 and it got even more interesting
As I previously stated one case neck separated at the shoulder leaving the neck on the bullet.
On resizing the brass I lost all but 3 due to neck splits. And they looked like OLD splits.
On trimming I lost another due to another shoulder separation
So in the end I got 20 bullets, 20 primers, and 2 cases.

 

[Jim Watson]

20 primers

Maybe. I wouldn't use them for anything important.

 

[Blue68f100]

If you try to break down some more, try seating the bullet deeper to break the bond before pulling.

 

[Slamfire]

I ran into an interesting situation today. About 5 years ago a reloading buddy gave me some 30-06 reloads a reloading buddy had given him. Vintage unknown, but they were bright and shiny. He wasn’t shooting big rifles anymore so he gave them to me for components.
I found them them today, about 120 or so.
Most were marked loaded with 48 gr IMR 4064 under a Hornady 165 gr soft point to 3.330.
The powder weights weighed a little low around 45-46grains. But the really strange thing was the powder was clumped and sticking together. I’ve seen this before in older ammo, especially foreign military, but not 10-15 year old reloads.
Also one case separated leaving the neck attached to the bullet.
There was also some verdigris inside the case.
Any ideas?

Don't shoot them. I don't know all the physical changes that occur when gunpowder deteriorates, but deteriorated gunpowder will turn gummy.







that green, that is corrosion created by di nitrogen oxide escaping from the gunpowder. NO2 is a horrible oxidizer, and when it converts to nitric acid gas, things don't get better.





Clumpy powder is a risk. You have no idea if the burn rate is stable. This whole ignition thing, with gunpowder, if the burn rate is unstable, it can blow your gun. You are dealing with something that does not burn like a candle. The slope of the pressure curve is exponential. Lots of guns have blown up with deteriorated gunpowder. Clumpy powder should not be used.



Pull the bullets, dump the powder. If the cases are green inside, dump the cases. Not worth having a case head fail because of pinhole corrosion.

 

[AJC1]

I would guess humidity has a lot to do with problems. When I was a kid we shot a few boxes of 38s that my dad loaded in high school. They were kept in an air conditioned garage in the high sierra desert for 40 years with no change.

 

[Slamfire]

I would guess humidity has a lot to do with problems. When I was a kid we shot a few boxes of 38s that my dad loaded in high school. They were kept in an air conditioned garage in the high sierra desert for 40 years with no change.

The primary problem is, the exact lifetime of gunpowder is unknowable, but everyone wants it to be immortal.

1973 Picatinny Arsenal report AD-763-879 Prediction of Safe Life of Propellants states

Recently the NATO countries were in need of an evaluation procedure that would assure acceptor countries that propellants received from others would have a proven chemical stability for a given period of time when stored at ambient conditions. After many stability tests were reviews and evaluated through the conduct of round robins to insure that strict analytical agreement could be realized among world wide participating laboratories, the above mentioned method for the determination of available stabilizer content was accepted, with the establishment of suitable cut-off points. It was assume that if a propellant withstood a heating period of 60 days at 65.5 ˚C., without undue depletion of available stabilizer content, then that propellant would have a proven chemical stability for 5 years storage at ambient conditions

TM 9 1300 214 U S Military Explosives https://bulletpicker.com/pdf/TM 9-1300-214, Military Explosives (1967).pdf

TM 9-1300-214 has this section on nitrocellulose


Section 7-7 Nitrocellulose

q. Nitrocellulose, even when highly purified, is much less stable than most of the non initiating military high explosives , as judged by elevated temperature tests. It appears to under go very slow decomposition even at ordinary temperatures, the rate of decomposition increasing 3.71 times with each increase in temperature of 10°C. The presence of moisture increases the rate of decomposition considerably and the presence also of free acid or alkali has an even more pronounced effect.

Ammunition companies don't warrant the stuff for more than ten years. Sometimes people have problems with 20 year old factory ammunition.

Remington 700 Overpressure with 20 year old factory ammunition

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527519

I'm sighting in my Remington 700 BDL .270 / Nikon 3X9 BDC today, and I decided to rotate old stock ammo. In this case, brand new (20 years ago), 130 grain ammo by a well known US ammunition Company. I bought several boxes of this brand, same lot, back in the early 90's after I discovered how wonderful they worked on woodchucks.

So I'm firing my 2nd round... WHAM! My mild .270 rifle bellows and whacks me in the glasses, odd I thought, as my .270's never kick like that.

The bolt won't open. I mean it is JAMMED. So after 5 min of banging on the bolt with my hand (HARD),it opens Ok, now the bolt draws back hard and the brass feels like its WELDED to the bolt face. I had to use a leatherman tool to pry it out. Rim was damaged, blackened, primer floating around, etc. Bolt appeared ok (Thank the Good Lord for Remington's 3 rings of steel protecting me!), and after switching ammo and using newer stock, the rifle functioned and sighted in 100% perfect. Scared the hell out of me though! This was factory ammo too, not reloads.

Ok, so I called Remington (ammo was early 90's vintage 130 grain Rem bronze point). They only back their ammo for 10 years (expected shelf life according to Remington). Note* I kept this ammo in a cool, dry place, sealed in a US Military ammo can for the past 2 decades. I have ammo from the 50's and 60's that still shoots fine. I guess with gunpowder, it's like rolling dice.

So, I'm glad the rifle is a Remington, as it was strong enough to take the hit without any damage, otherwise it would be my dime (and hide). I had our armorer (LEO), check it out as well. The bolt face appears ok, and I pulled the firing pin, ok as well. Damn strong rifle.

That brass was warped near the rim, I hate to guess what the PSI was, I'm betting well over 80,000 PSI, given how stiff that bolt was to open. If I can get a photo posted, I will. Now I have several boxes of old .270 ammo to dispose of, as I'm not going to shoot it through my cherished 700 BDL anymore. At least the brass is still good and my right hand is still attached to my arm!
Time to go out and stock up on .270's!!!

Picher; Yes, bore was / is like a mirror. The rifle is a MINT early 80's BDL 700. No rust or pitting. She is one sexy rifle, it was love at first sight... The high gloss wood and rich, deep blue steel.... MMmmmmm!!!!

It was close to 90 on Sunday in Maine, and humid. The ammo has been stored correctly, but, after all, it HAS been 20 years or so. I know my knees are not the same as they were 2 decades ago, so I guess I can't expect the ammo to fair any better. It just caught me off guard, as I stock up on (and shoot), old ammo, and NEVER had any issue. I guess I need to rotate my supply more often...

Gunpowder is more nitrated version of nitrocellulose than the commercial uses of nitrocellulose, so its lifetime is even less certain. I have several fountain pens made from nitrocellulose, the colors are fantastic. Old film stock was made with nitrocellulose, used to burn down movie theaters, and today, old film stock is considered very dangerous. This is an interesting paper on conserving cellulose nitrate items. The full paper can be found at the link.

The Use of Cellulose Nitrate in Art Conservation

Dr. Charles Selwitz Getty Museum

https://www.getty.edu/conservation/publications_resources/pdf_publications/pdf/nitrate.pdf

Cellulose nitrate is the polynitrate ester of the natural polysaccharide, cellulose, and for a polymer averaging 2.3 nitrate groups per glucose unit has the structure shown in Figure 1. The molecular weight for most commercial products ranges between 20,000 and 250,000. This semisynthetic polymer was first produced more than 150 years ago and is the most important and only commercially available inorganic ester of cellulose. Due to its unique physical properties and low cost it has been an important factor in many advances in the industrial arts and sciences over the years. Cellulose nitrate was initially used in the manufacture of military explosives where it came to be known as "gun cotton," the first major development in explosives since the introduction of black powder. When it was discovered that cellulose nitrate could be stabilized with camphor (in the ratio of 4:1), the resultant product, celluloid, inaugurated the advent of engineering plastics


In the years following World War I, cellulose nitrate lacquers and coatings were developed. While these have since been superseded by better materials, the largest industrial use today of cellulose nitrate (now also referred to as nitrocellulose) continues to be in its capacity as a lacquer, although substantial quantities are still used in explosives and propellants, printing inks, and plastics. Currently, the total commercial production of cellulose nitrate in the United States approaches 100 million pounds a year


In terms of stability, however, cellulose nitrate is a very suspect material. It does not have the resistance to degradation possessed by most other polymers used in conservation. Only when stability is defined as "the maintenance of solubility and reversibility" can cellulose nitrate, which degrades, but generally does not crosslink, be said to have stability

Chapter 3 Causes of Instability

Most of the literature on cellulose nitrate instability describes three primary modes of decomposition: hydrolytic, thermal, and photochemical. These modes are examined in this paper with concern for rates and mechanisms most likely to prevail under ambient conditions. Recent research can be interpreted to show that these three modes can be redefined into more fundamental mechanisms for primary decomposition, a finding that may provide additional insight into the properties of the polymer as well as the optimum conditions for its use. Primary decomposition processes slowly lead to breakdown products. If these are not swept away they can lead, catalytically, to a faster and more extensive degradation than that caused by the primary processes that engender them. Conclusions on the chemistry of decomposition caused by these breakdown products, i.e., secondary processes, are integrated with our analyses of the primary modes in the next section-a discussion on the overall stability of cellulose nitrate at ambient conditions.

 

[Catpop]

Great pics Slamfire!

 

[twarr1]

The primary problem is, the exact lifetime of gunpowder is unknowable…

This

That’s why the military regularly tests stockpiled ammunition. If there was a reliable formula to calculate shelf life (there isn’t) they would use it.

 

[lightman]

I scrap all of the stuff that I find or thats given to me. The bullets go into my lead stash for my annual melt down, the powder goes into my fruit jar for my annual campfire light show at Deer Camp, the primers go into the trash can and the brass either goes into my brass stash or the scrap bucket. Depending on how it and the powder looked.

I was given a box of Norma 6.5 Jap ammo by a local guy. I could crush the cases in my hand! That and the pictures above are the reason I no longer load huge quantities of ammo at a time.

 

[AJC1]

I scrap all of the stuff that I find or thats given to me. The bullets go into my lead stash for my annual melt down, the powder goes into my fruit jar for my annual campfire light show at Deer Camp, the primers go into the trash can and the brass either goes into my brass stash or the scrap bucket. Depending on how it and the powder looked.

I was given a box of Norma 6.5 Jap ammo by a local guy. I could crush the cases in my hand! That and the pictures above are the reason I no longer load huge quantities of ammo at a time.

Your over there breaking preper hearts. They have spent years making a giant pile of ammunition....

 

[lightman]

Your over there breaking preper hearts. They have spent years making a giant pile of ammunition....

Yeah, I know!

 

[Catpop]

I’ve personally seen old ammo, WW2, in great shape and I’ve personally seen 5 -10 year old commercial ammo as Slamfire’s pictures show, completely deteriorated.
This doesn’t really pose a problem with private reloads if you follow the rules “never shoot someone else’s reloads”. Just break them down and be thankful for their salvageable components.
Commercial ammo, including commercial reloads, falls into another category.

My new rules:
1. Any ammo that exhibits verdigris on the outside is suspect to internal deterioration and will be broken down for inspection of components.
2. Ammo 10 years or older even if in pristine external condition should be suspect of internal deterioration! Samples should be pulled and broken down for visual examination of components before firing.
3. Any brass cartridge cases found with clumped, sticky powder will be discarded along with the powder. You may only end up salvaging the bullets.
4.——

Thanks to all that brought these points to light!
Looks like I’m going to be checking some of my WW2 Garand stock shorty!!!!

 

[Slamfire]

Your over there breaking preper hearts. They have spent years making a giant pile of ammunition....

This forum has been supportive of my writings on the deterioration issues of gunpowder. But I got to tell you, on other forums it is surprising how fast posters become absolutely vile and hateful when told that their gunpowder has been breaking down from the day it left the factory, and at some unknown date in the future, will become dangerous to shoot and store.

I believe that these irrational, hateful deniers somehow conflate their desire for immortality with the immortality of their ammunition/gun powder. And you can see the logic, because their gunpowder will last forever, then that means they are going to last forever. Murder one, murder them both. Magical thinkers don't like their having their delusions popped.

 

[Slamfire]

I scrap all of the stuff that I find or thats given to me. The bullets go into my lead stash for my annual melt down, the powder goes into my fruit jar for my annual campfire light show at Deer Camp, the primers go into the trash can and the brass either goes into my brass stash or the scrap bucket. Depending on how it and the powder looked.

I was given a box of Norma 6.5 Jap ammo by a local guy. I could crush the cases in my hand! That and the pictures above are the reason I no longer load huge quantities of ammo at a time.

Look at what age did to these cases:



and look who had five year old ammunition go bad!

 

[AJC1]

This forum has been supportive of my writings on the deterioration issues of gunpowder. But I got to tell you, on other forums it is surprising how fast posters become absolutely vile and hateful when told that their gunpowder has been breaking down from the day it left the factory, and at some unknown date in the future, will become dangerous to shoot and store.

I believe that these irrational, hateful deniers somehow conflate their desire for immortality with the immortality of their ammunition/gun powder. And you can see the logic, because their gunpowder will last forever, then that means they are going to last forever. Murder one, murder them both. Magical thinkers don't like their having their delusions popped.

I believe everything has a shelf life, and just like anything how easy that life is the better the chance of survival. None of my supplies have lived at my house longer than 3 years minus some bullets I've had for 10. The oldest powder I own was preaged on the shelf for me. Its getting gone quickly and wont last till summer.

 

[Catpop]

Yeah, losing my only box of 7.62x54R like to have broken my heart!