remember what I said about prozac and school shootings?

[beerslurpy]

Minn high school student was recently put on 40 mg a day. You know, before he went nuts and killed everyone.

Again, not saying that "taking prozac" ==> "posession by bloodthirsty demons" but there are obviously a certain number of cases in which adding prozac to the situation is like adding water to a vat full of strong acid. Water usually harmless, getting splashed with acid != fun.

 

[444]

I had this same discussion with someone at work.
He said, Do you notice that every call we run where someone either made a suicide gesture/suicide attempt/actual suicide, that the person was on prozac ?
He said this as if the prozac made them suicidal.

He forgot about one key thing. The people that are perscribed prozac are people who are depressed or have some degree of mental illness. This might also be the same way you could describe people who are suicidal: people who are depressed or have some degree of mental illness. So should it be a surprise that these people perscribed that drug also happen to attempt suicide ?
Ok, should it be a surprise that someone who does something crazy like shooting up a school is on prozac ?
Or should we believe that the drug made them do something that they ordinarily wouldn't have done ?

 

[Justin]

I've heard it said that for any group of people prescribe antidepressants that about 1/3 of them will show improvement, 1/3 will remain about the same, and 1/3 will worsen. This is why it's a bad idea to be on antidepressants, or any psychoactive drug without seeing a psychiatrist on a regular basis.

 

[beerslurpy]

Thanks justin, that was my point exactly. Every time I raise this issue, people accuse me of being unreasonable.

My point is that antidepressents are currently treated a lot like tylenol- where the worst that can happen is that your headache isnt cured. When you tweak people's brain chemistry, it usually helps to have someone around who can watch for undesired effects. Maybe he should have been on something entirely different? Or nothign at all?

 

[Kingcreek]

read the PDR list for side effects and adverse reactions. It does indeed increase risk.
IMO, SSRI drugs are a chemical labotamy.

 

[critter]

This is a society who believes that any malady, no matter how small or how large, is instantly curable by the addition of the appropriate regimen of chemicals, drugs or pills-legal or illegal.

 

[HankB]

Turn back the clock 40 years - you know, to before GCA '68 when all manner of milsurp firearms were readily available via mail order, with no paperwork, for prices that were cheap even for the times.

How many mass school shootings were there back then?

Then ask yourself how many kids back in the '40s, '50s and '60s were being drugged up on Luvox, Ritalin, Prozac, and who knows what by the pill-pushing quacks practicing the pseudoscience of psychiatry, as compared to the last 10 or 15 years.

 

[Justin]

IMO, SSRI drugs are a chemical labotamy.

You're bloviating.

How many mass school shootings were there back then?

Then ask yourself how many kids back in the '40s, '50s and '60s were being drugged up on Luvox, Ritalin, Prozac, and who knows what by the pill-pushing quacks practicing the pseudoscience of psychiatry, as compared to the last 10 or 15 years.

Hank, sorry to say that your reasoning is specious at best. Calling psychiatry a pseudoscience is also both incorrect and derogatory.

 

[longrifleman]

Hank, sorry to say that your reasoning is specious at best. Calling psychiatry a pseudoscience is also both incorrect and derogatory.

Maybe a bit over the top, but it is called practicing the ART of medicine for a reason. I've read several articles by MD's over the years in which they admit that a great deal of what they do isn't based on "science" so much as experience and trial and error. Have you ever had a Dr. say we will start on this dose and see what happens? Maybe good medicine but not real scientific.

The brain seems to be the least understood part of the body, but probably the most complicated. Hank's point about the drugs is important to keep in mind as I think he is right that the Shrinks are probably doing the same thing with brain chemistry as heart Drs. are doing with blood pressure. But if your blood pressure goes off, you aren't likely to go crazy and start shooting. With brain meds, the potential seems to be happening.

One problem with the state of knowlege about the brain is that I don't think there is any way to test to see if some chemical imbalance sent a kid over the edge. If any Docs around here know different I would like to hear some details.

 

[RevDisk]

By my very non-scientific process of watching people on prozac, some people have mood swings that are really heightened by prozac. A person I know on prozac, and really does need it, is that once every couple of weeks he locks himself in his room. He has incredible rage, and knows it. He nor I would be very surprised if a number of these shooters had drug-induced rage.

Note, this is not an excuse. There is no excuse for shooting innocent people. If you cannot control your use of a drug, you should not be using. As others have said, taking psychoactive drugs without someone overseeing your progress is a bad idea. If you voluntarily consume a drug, you are responsible for your actions. That's why any prescription drug come with information about side effects, or a number/website to get said information.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Remember Thalidomide?

Congress' obsession with Terry Schiavo is indicative of their ideal constituent: unable to think or speak for himself, immobile, and completely dependent upon their good will.

Justin, that's very well said!

 

[SUE ROVR]

kid was clearly bi-polar (read his rants on the neo nazi board)

bi-polar+prozac=disinhibited=suicide, murder etc.

 

[c_yeager]

If you were to take every bi-polar kid in america and hand them a shiny blue marble, eventually it would show that 90% of school shootings were perpetrated by people who had shiny blue marbles. Does this mean that the marbles are the cause of the shootings?

Im not saying that it isnt possible that the prozac is a contributing factor but, school shootings are statistically insignificant when compared to the size of the population that is taking prozac. This really doesnt provide any substantiation at all. The only thing that we can say for sure about this kid is that he wasnt 'right' in the head. Now that might explain why someone put him on prozac in the first place.

With that said I don't believe in putting kids on anti-depresants in the first place. I think that it can pose significant challenges to a developing child. And the drugs really havent been adequatly studied in this application. I agree that its a bad idea. I am just not quite prepared to draw a connection between the drugs themselves and the shootings.

 

[Joejojoba111]

do you work for Phizer? Look into Viox and you see the dirty truth - these are HARD drugs and they [mess] ppl up. Viox has many tests, they only release the good results. This stuff is NOT new, it is Well known and Well documented. It's almost a year since the Viox deal. IF you try to stop taking these drugs you WILL suffer, the faster you try to come off the worse you will suffer. The number of suicides by NON-suicidal people, ie people not suicidal before taking the drug, those suicides lend a little credence to the 'these drugs mess a certain % of people up' theory. People who did not like what the drug did to them and say so, who come out and say "this drugs messes me up!" are also kind of evidence.

As for those here saying the drugs have no effect, the people were already crazy - how about using basic science? Statistics: if 99% of cases show use of prozac, you say hmm. Since not every suicidal person uses Prozac, they give you something to refer to.

Results? Mass shooters almost always have Prozac (or something) in them. People not taking Prozac may still commit suicide normally. People taking Prozac still commit suicide normally. People not taking Prozac aren't committing mass shootings. People taking Prozac are committing mass shootings. Nope, no connection whatsoever.

It's pretty clear, and any investigative piece on these substances has little difficulty finding strong evidence that these drugs do bad things to many people. C'mon, some schmuk on the radio tells you that mind drugs and mass shootings are unrelated - even though they are explicitly related, you don't have to belive the radio schmuk.

Want the really good news? Child services can force children to be medicated, if a teacher and a few other people agree on it. The parents are not among those involved in the decision.

 

[RealGun]

I am just not quite prepared to draw a connection between the drugs themselves and the shootings. - c_yeager

I wish that was true for everyone here. Those who are so sure they know the score don't know what they are talking about. Why is it that men in particular are so intent on rushing to the bottom line, making pronouncements and dismissing the issue, while pretending they are well informed?

I will say that prescription of these drugs seems to be more casual now than when I took them soon after their introduction. Ongoing consultation is necessary to evaluate which drug seems to work the best or if there are concerns about side effects. I had to work strictly with a psychiatrist. I now find that regular doctors and even internists can prescribe these things without special training or close follow up. I think it's still true that this type of treatment is not for everyone and that benefits or contraindications vary from person to person.

Part of the problem is many insurance companies excluding coverage for mental health, either before or after treatment with medication. Everything went smoothly for me until I lost my insurance. All of a sudden neither my therapist nor psychiatrist was very interested in making an appointment.

I am not aware of the current cost but I recall the meds costing about $7-8 per day. I had about $2000 in prescription claims that I never filed while insured, because I wasn't in good enough spirits to care or find the motivation to do the paperwork. That while not needing to be hospitalized and missing no time from work.

From what I have read, there is no connection between bipolar disorder and Prozac. Bipolars take an entirely different family of drugs. People who take Prozac or other seratonin level regulators may suffer from OCD or normal and common depression. Take these drugs is simply part of a comprehensive program to get a grip and move on. OCD may require staying on the drug indefinitely or permanently. The drugs have been found to be effective for a variety of conditions.

I think what raises a question more recently is how these drugs interact with the raging hormones and tentative personalities of adolescents.

 

[SUE ROVR]

"If you were to take every bi-polar kid in america and hand them a shiny blue marble, eventually it would show that 90% of school shootings were perpetrated by people who had shiny blue marbles. Does this mean that the marbles are the cause of the shootings?"

Well if it was found that the marbles were given shortly before the shooting rampage then . . . the unmedicated bi-polar kids are not doing these shootings. I wonder why? What is the difference? The marble. This is the dirty secret of these drugs. They work for depression but make manic depression worse.

"From what I have read, there is no connection between bipolar disorder and Prozac. Bipolars take an entirely different family of drugs."

This is the point. If someone is misdianosed as something other than bi-polar and given prozac (1. because it is cheap and 2. because many doctors don't know any better) then they have the interaction.

 

[saltydog452]

I just gotta throw my .02 in here...

Blaining the medication is akin to blaming a kids 'unhappy childhood', drug dependent mom, absent male role model, etc.

Its the exact same thing as the anti 2nd Ammendment folks use to focus the cause of violence on weapons rather than on the person(s) using them.

It isnt the drugs fault, the Dr.s, the kids parents, or Aunt Sue. Its too easy to blame someone/something else for our problems.

The kid will certainly be remembered, at least in that community, for a generation or two. Is that so different as flying an airplane into a building? Or 300 Spartians? Maybe, maybe not. I dunno.

The thing is, the kid was sick before he took the prescribed drugs. Medication was not the cause of the tragedy. Its too easy to blame past or external forces on current deviant behavior.

I 'spect the kid just wanted to 'go out in a blaze of glory'. If so, then he tragically succeded.

Just my rant on the subject.

Gonna duck now and head for cover. Got my kelvar undies on and my shield over my head.

salty.

 

[444]

RealGun: very well put. You beat me to the fact that if this kid was bipolor, this has nothing to do with being on prozac.

I love the statistics being used in this thread: I said it, so that is a statistical fact that I can base the rest of my arguments on.
You know another recently discovered fact about these mass murderers ? The investigations seem to indicate that all of them drank water and they think it was tap water.

 

[hammer4nc]

As someone who witnessed some rather disturbing reactions to zoloft, an observation...the prescriptions seemed to be available with little direct observation (much less an examination) by a doctor. Given that some patients will have adverse side effects; is it exaggerating to state that some doctors seem to be careless in their dispensing this class of drugs?

 

[R.H. Lee]

He forgot about one key thing. The people that are perscribed prozac are people who are depressed or have some degree of mental illness.

Well then, it didn't work, did it? I find you knee-jerk drug defenders as suspect as someone who draws an immediate connection between the drug and mass murder. You have no idea whether there was or was not a connection, yet you're willing to argue there was not. Wishful thinking? Whistling in the dark?

For the record, I'm drug free and suspicious of anyone on these mind affecting mood altering chemicals, prescribed or not.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Turn back the clock 40 years - you know, to before GCA '68 when all manner of milsurp firearms were readily available via mail order, with no paperwork, for prices that were cheap even for the times.

How many mass school shootings were there back then?

Then ask yourself how many kids back in the '40s, '50s and '60s were being drugged up on Luvox, Ritalin, Prozac, and who knows what by the pill-pushing quacks practicing the pseudoscience of psychiatry, as compared to the last 10 or 15 years.

I just love over simplied supposed cause and effect conclusions like this one by HankB and some others mentioned here. What you have is a limited set of information with no other known inforamtion or controls and then you draw specific conclusions from this information without ever knowing the information necessary to draw such conclusions. It sort of reminds me of the statistical joke about how eating bread causes death. The numbers support the fact that 100% of bread eaters do die.

 

[444]

Riley, I seldom bother to argue with you, but this one time I am going to make an exception.
What makes any of what I said, knee jerk ?
Especially when it is based on seeing people (in person) that are suicidal and seeing (first hand) what medications they are taking and talking to them about it over a 23 year period.
I guess I have a different definition of knee jerk.

"I just love over simplied supposed cause and effect conclusions........"
This is very common in the internet. Some people are just negative about everything and a whole lot of people on this board just have a problem with "authority figures" and will argue against them no matter what. You will see some of these same people in every anti-establishment thread on this board.
I was talking to a doctor one day and he was really frustrated with the fact that he had a big problem getting his patients to take their cardiac medications as directed. He said that years and years of research go into these medications. Years of experience of actual use has taken place. Yet people don't want to listen. BUT, if an infomertial or a health food store come out with some herbal remedy that has not research behind it, people will flock there to buy it.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Or should we believe that the drug made them do something that they ordinarily wouldn't have done ?

and

Especially when it is based on seeing people (in person) that are suicidal and seeing (first hand) what medications they are taking and talking to them about it over a 23 year period.

OK 444, since you're the self proclaimed expert, you tell me. How many times in your vast experience have you determined that a violent act could have been prevented if only the perpetrator had taken medication?

 

[griz]

I'm not trying to answer for 444, he appears quite capable of that.
But I will say that statistcally the point is how many Prozac patients don't shoot anybody versus the small percentage that do. Although I don't know the number, I suspect it is pretty high because the Prozac market would be too small otherwise.

 

[SUE ROVR]

"You beat me to the fact that if this kid was bipolor, this has nothing to do with being on prozac."

But this is where you are wrong. It is not JUST prozac, it is not JUST being bi-polar, it is the combination.