Remington attempts to move south, take two.

[mcb]

Just another nail in the coffin for Ilion NY. My Grandmother crated firearms for the Navy at the Ilion Plant. My Grandfather moved firearms between the different stations at the plant. My Grandfather and Uncle both retired from the Arms. My friend sent me this picture earlier today. Locally this is a big deal.

View attachment 1037098

Interesting, I have not found a news article saying they are closing Ilion. That appears to be a headline to sell papers. RemArms earlier this year negotiated a tax deal with the city of Ilion NY for a tax break over the next 10 years.

https://www.timestelegram.com/story...moving-headquarters-ilion-georgia/6342489001/

The above linked article says the jobs are staying in NY. But it also say that,, "...the Huntsville operation, research and development and corporate headquarters will be consolidated at the new Georgia facility. " The corporate head quarters moving is apparent right (it was previously Madison NC before the second bankruptcy ended The Remington Outdoor Company) but the R&D moving from Huntsville is 100% BS as all the engineers and technicians here in Huntsville quit, retired, or were let go before the second bankruptcy. A one-armed man does not need to take his shoes off to count the number of Huntsville Remington employees that ended up staying with the new RemArms LLC and not one of those is an engineer. It always amazes me how bad news papers, even a local paper, are is at getting the facts right in any new story.

 

[Turkeytider]

No mention in the fluff piece article about how much in tax relief that community and state are going to give, or building loans promised.

Long history of these projects never hiring the amount of workers they forecast, and never being financially sound enough to produce the benefits they promise to the community.

Of course there are financial incentives. That`s standard practice for all states and municipalities. They understand full well the risks involved. I believe that Huntsville has been made whole according to agreements.

 

[mcb]

Of course there are financial incentives. That`s standard practice for all states and municipalities. They understand full well the risks involved. I believe that Huntsville has been made whole according to agreements.

Huntsville got possession of the building back. They got most but not all the missing back payments out of the bankruptcy settlement and they certainly never got the promised jobs that would have generated more revenue for the city. Not that it's missed much as the economy is going like gang busters here (Polaris, Toyota, Mazda, Blue Origin, and near countless number of large and small companies that are part of the military industrial complex and NASA) but all in all the nearly 6 years Remington was here was a net loss for the city. Huntsville got the building back but they now have a huge building with a bunch of firearms specific modifications done to it that are not much use for anything else short of another large firearms manufacture. There are test ranges and blow up rooms etc that are not easily used for other things and not easily removed from the building due to the heavy construction required by their function. It going to take time and/or money to move that building to a new owner.

 

[Turkeytider]

Huntsville got possession of the building back. They go most but not all the missing back payments out of the bankruptcy settlement and they certainly never got the promised jobs that would have generated more revenue for the city. Not that it's missed much as the economy is going like gang busters here (Polaris, Toyota, Mazda, Blue Origin, and near countless number of large and small companies that are part of the military industrial complex and the NASA) but all in all the nearly 6 years Remington was here was a net loss for the city. Huntsville got the building back but they now have a huge building with a bunch of firearms specific modification done to it that are not much use for anything else short of another large firerms manufacture. There are test ranges and blow up rooms etc that are not easily used for other things and not easily removed from the building due to the heavy construction required by their function. It going to take time and/or money to move that building to a new owner.

Thanks much for a far more informed synopsis of the situation in Huntsville. Somebody could and should write a book about the ruination of an American manufacturing icon.

 

[mcb]

One more thing. Remington Outdoor Company had promised over 1800 jobs in Huntsville in less than 10 years after starting up the Huntsville plant. They never got to 500 in the nearly six years here before going belly up. The whole company at all location was less than the promised 1800 Huntsville employees at their peak before the first bankruptcy. And that was Remington, Marlin, DPMS, Bushmaster, and AAC all producing products here in Huntsville.

Now RemArms LLC that is only legacy Remington firearms (870, 700, R1 etc) all the other brands are owned by others, is promising Georgia 850 jobs in five years and must maintain at least 200 in Ilion, to keep the tax relief.

I am skeptical at best...

 

[dh1633pm]

My sources say that Huntsville never got all the jobs because Remington was not happy with the performance of the plant. Could be a bit of bravado on their part. My work better than your work. And of course due to their slow slide towards death. Whiles others might be talking about what the news or business insiders are saying, my info comes from those within that make what you are buying. So consider it rumor or hearsay. Some of which might very come true or maybe not. Ilion is not a very big place. Everyone knows someone who has worked or is working at the Arms. I do know I needed a Remington 870 part and I was able to source what I needed from those connected to the Arms.

 

[mcb]

My sources say that Huntsville never got all the jobs because Remington was not happy with the performance of the plant. Could be a bit of bravado on their part. My work better than your work. And of course due to their slow slide towards death. Whiles others might be talking about what the news or business insiders are saying, my info comes from those within that make what you are buying. So consider it rumor or hearsay. Some of which might very come true or maybe not. Ilion is not a very big place. Everyone knows someone who has worked or is working at the Arms. I do know I needed a Remington 870 part and I was able to source what I needed from those connected to the Arms.

It has nothing to do with performance it had to do with sales never being strong enough to support the promised number of employees. Remington was not selling enough product to support 1800 employees total, let alone 1800 in Huntsville. Near the end Huntsville was making more products (in both variety and quantity) than Ilion despite being a smaller facility. Huntsville was making all the AR's (AR-15, LR-308, GII, R25, R10 etc), all the Marlin rimfires, the 783, all the handguns, and all the AAC products. Ilion was making shotguns, 700s and Marlin lever actions. In the run up to the 2016 election Huntsville was making more AR-15 in a day of production than all the firearms Ilion was making in the same amount of time. I live and work in the Huntsville area and will leave that at that.

 

[dh1633pm]

In Ilion, workers believe otherwise.

 

[herrwalther]

I know a lot of people that worked at the Remington plant in Huntsville. None of them were what I would call "gun people." When you hire low wage labor to build firearms on an assembly line with no regard for quality control, it isn't going to make a good name for you among customers. Trying the same thing in the next state over isn't going to make it better.

 

[Double_J]

I spent 4 years as a Quality Engineer for one of Hyundai Motors tier 1 suppliers. The proposed plant is not far from our sister Kia plant. They have the chance to steal labor IF they pay competitive wages, and set up a proper training program with PROPER quality steps baked into the process.

The people in this area are used to building true assembly line items and do not know the subtle things that can improve the overall product. Should Remington try to just pull a Walmart and hire cheap labor and not train them they will get what they pay for and end up with the same result they had before the bankruptcy.

I wish them well but I am not holding my breath.

 

[mcb]

I know a lot of people that worked at the Remington plant in Huntsville. None of them were what I would call "gun people." When you hire low wage labor to build firearms on an assembly line with no regard for quality control, it isn't going to make a good name for you among customers. Trying the same thing in the next state over isn't going to make it better.

I agree, much of the manufacturing side was not gun people, a few were but they were the exception. I also agree Georgia's low wage labor is going to be no better or worst.

But not all the employees in Huntsville were low wage labor. Remember the R&D group was here. I manage to meet most of the engineers that worked on the R&D side (and now would even call a few friends) and most of them are very much gun people, hunters, shooters, and competitive shooters (I shot matches with Travis Tomasie and Ryan Cleckner along with several other significantly less publicly know Remington employees, and have hunted with a few other employees). Many of the new members of the R&D team that bolstered the R&D team that was moved from Elizabethtown KY came from other gun companies, some of them have moved on to new gun companies, but not all, Huntsville is a wonderful town with tons of opportunities for capable engineers and some stayed. I work with one of the former test engineers and know a few more engineers and technicians that are at other local companies in the area that I still get together with or shoot with.

 

[herrwalther]

Travis Tomasie

TT worked with Para USA. They were bought by Remingtion and he was their brand ambassador for awhile. Now he is off to MPA. I think if RemArms wants to make this new growth work, they should go back to what they were known for to build a loyal customer base back. Start with the 700s, start with the 870s, this would be a great time to revive the Wingmaster. Build less firearms but good ones. If they crank out low quality work because they don't want to pay a better wage for better labor, this will easily turn into a third bankruptcy in Georgia.

 

[Turkeytider]

TT worked with Para USA. They were bought by Remingtion and he was their brand ambassador for awhile. Now he is off to MPA. I think if RemArms wants to make this new growth work, they should go back to what they were known for to build a loyal customer base back. Start with the 700s, start with the 870s, this would be a great time to revive the Wingmaster. Build less firearms but good ones. If they crank out low quality work because they don't want to pay a better wage for better labor, this will easily turn into a third bankruptcy in Georgia.

Personally, I think that this is absolutely correct. Excellent product QC MUST be a very top priority. The other critical element is CUSTOMER SERVICE after the sale. They have to get that up and running ASAP IMHO. Even while Remington was in their final iteration, Remington customer service was top drawer. The American consumer is amazingly forgiving of problems IF those problems are addressed efficiently and effectively.

As for a lack of " gun people " in the plant, while I agree that you would need skilled firearms manufacturing staff in key positions, the answer to having good staff on the assembly lines is TRAINING and a sense of pride in the product. Here in Savannah we are the home of Gulfstream Aircraft manufacturing. Believe me, the line staff when they first join the company would not be classified as " airplane people ". What they are, though, is highly trained for their jobs. I would hazard a guess that the employees at the automobile plants throughout the South are much the same. Opinions vary, but a lot of folks must think Toyota, Nissan and Honda are pretty good vehicles. IF...IF RemArms/Remington has the wherewithal and the desire to do it right, I think that they can be successful as well with this move. I, for one, am pulling for them.

 

[Detritus]

I think if RemArms wants to make this new growth work, they should go back to what they were known for to build a loyal customer base back. Start with the 700s, start with the 870s, this would be a great time to revive the Wingmaster. Build less firearms but good ones. If they crank out low quality work because they don't want to pay a better wage for better labor, this will easily turn into a third bankruptcy in Georgia.

the problem there is that Remington can have: High QC versions of those guns, a profit margin they consider sufficient, sell them at a price folks are willing to pay, Pick 2.

With modern production techniques and appropriate production oversight the 700 and 870 CAN be made to proper standards and at a price point that's reasonable. But the current business mindset means that the "owners" won't accept the lower profits that would entail.
couple of thoughts

• Remington has managed to make a mockery of the 700 over the past 20 years or more there's a lot of damage to that guns reputation they need to repair/make up for.
• Even factoring in any other consideration "the market" expects the 870 to fit a specific price point. and to hit that price point, you gotta kiss the wingmaster goodbye, the extra labor required to make that model drives the price into a bracket where those willing to pay that price would rather have a less shiny 11-87 or a Benelli. that's just the effect of the extra time and effort of doing the level of polish that the stock and metal finish of the Wingmaster entails.
• the current crew running RemArms has already proven that they don't entirely get it. if they understood what was needed to best "Save the name" they wouldn't have cut a tax-deal with Ilion. they'd have cut their losses and run as far as local deals are concerned, and only maintained the minimum staff at the site to not get put on the superfund list.

I kind of hope they manage to pull it off, but i really do have my doubts. this whole thing continues to reek of a long form pillaging. I suspect that this current group will keep going just long enough to squeeze all they think they can out of the Company, then bait someone else into making an offer just before the need for a contract/deal renegotiation.

 

[Detritus]

I would hazard a guess that the employees at the automobile plants throughout the South are much the same. Opinions vary, but a lot of folks must think Toyota, Nissan and Honda are pretty good vehicles. IF...IF RemArms/Remington has the wherewithal and the desire to do it right, I think that they can be successful as well with this move. I, for one, am pulling for them.

from personal work experience... the people making the transmissions for Toyota, aren't even machinists much less "car people". I worked in the AW (the wholly owned subsidiary of Toyota that makes their Automatic transmissions) plant here in NC for awhile, they literally seem operate on the concept of, "any warm body will do, anyone that actually UNDERSTANDS these processes is gonna find a better paying job anyway"

my shift lead was at the "place part in box, press button, magic **** happens, remove part" level of comprehension of the process. there are probably less than 20 people on each shift in that entire plant that could be considered a "Machinist", including the mechanics/machine maintenance guys. everyone actually working the line is a best a machine-tender. there was an incident that I won't go into here, that proved to me that I was probably the only person on my shift if not in my entire Dept. that could read and understand the process/tool path diagrams that were supposed to be kept at each machine.

Also as a side note, "keep the business in the family" is strong in that place as far as equipment decisions. Probably 60% of the machine tools in there were from Howa/Showa (IE the modern incarnation of the company started by Sakichi Toyoda, father of Kiichiro founder of the car company)

 

[Turkeytider]

from personal work experience... the people making the transmissions for Toyota, aren't even machinists much less "car people". I worked in the AW (the wholly owned subsidiary of Toyota that makes their Automatic transmissions) plant here in NC for awhile, they literally seem operate on the concept of, "any warm body will do, anyone that actually UNDERSTANDS these processes is gonna find a better paying job anyway"

my shift lead was at the "place part in box, press button, magic **** happens, remove part" level of comprehension of the process. there are probably less than 20 people on each shift in that entire plant that could be considered a "Machinist", including the mechanics/machine maintenance guys. everyone actually working the line is a best a machine-tender. there was an incident that I won't go into here, that proved to me that I was probably the only person on my shift if not in my entire Dept. that could read and understand the process/tool path diagrams that were supposed to be kept at each machine.

Also as a side note, "keep the business in the family" is strong in that place as far as equipment decisions. Probably 60% of the machine tools in there were from Howa/Showa (IE the modern incarnation of the company started by Sakichi Toyoda, father of Kiichiro founder of the car company)

My point precisely in my previous post concerning the necessity for " gun people " ( what does that mean exactly anyway? ) on a new Remington manufacturing line.

 

[Hugger-4641]

I was the Maint. and facilities manager for a tier one supplier to Toyota for startup and 5yrs of operation until I decided to work closer to home. We made over half of the stamped and welded chassis parts for the Corolla and several parts for other models. The skill required to actually operate the presses and robotic welding cells is not very elevated. The average 8th grader could probably be trained to operate them in a reasonable time.
The engineering, machining, and other skilled labor needed to design, install, set up, program, and maintain the machines is where product quality is actually attained.
The South is catching on to this fact and states like TN have finally started to realize that engineering, skilled trades, and S.T.E.M. programs are more important for the future than liberal arts degrees. I say "started to realize" because most school guidance counselors are still pushing kids towards academic paths where only a very small percentage actually complete a degree and succeed. In most schools you are still a second rate consideration to the faculty or even dismissed as an underachiever if your plan is to be a machinist, electrician or welder. Nevermind that the machinists, electricians, and welders that I know have 3x the income compared to most of the 4yr degree crowd. Until the whole country figures out how to fix this, many former manufacturing regions are going to continue to watch their decline as other regions continue to grow. If Rem will take advantage of this and develop their skilled trade and training programs, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to make a high quality product and still make good profit

 

[Elkins45]

Serious question: if a person woke up tomorrow and found out they needed a gun for some particular purpose, is there any category of firearm where a Remington product would be the obvious first and best choice? I honestly can’t think of one.

I hope Remington survives because of their historical ties and because I think more players in the field is healthier, but should they disappear entirely I don’t believe they will leave a significant hole in the industry.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

If you believe the gun rag articles, RemArms is building guns “better than they ever have before” and that the “spirit of the old guns lives on”.

 

[rust collector]

By now most of us realize that nothing is as it seems and anything can happen. I suspect that many of us want this to turn out well but fear the many challenges to being a successful producer in a global market when local environmental and labor concerns and lack of public support add to the headwinds. All we can do is see if they can produce a useful product at a reasonable price. Until they are in production, it's all speculation.

 

[Detritus]

The average 8th grader could probably be trained to operate them in a reasonable time.
The engineering, machining, and other skilled labor needed to design, install, set up, program, and maintain the machines is where product quality is actually attained.

Mostly true. But you still need to have at least one person in a production cell that actually knows how to read the prints and how the tools "work". i.e. it should not be entirely a pack of semi-untrained tenders with no knowledgeable oversight. and that is what most of the lines at the plant I was in were.

It's hard to make quality parts when the supervisory personnel involved don't understand that if say, a part is supposed to have a nice, round, small Dia. hole in it, having the part come out with a peanut shaped hole at that location is NOT acceptable.

and I've met others that have made similar observations about other locations and operations. such that it does not give me confidence that the major corporations that are putting their plants in the south for the break in labor costs are giving due consideration to those staffing requirements.

I guess what I'm saying is that, that plant was/is running with too few actual Machinists on staff. and frankly their staffing system (almost purely through temp agencies) isn't/wasn't setup to even sort the qualified Machinists from the people needing instruction on why you wear Eye-pro.

or to be direct, if the transmission (specifically the Trans oil pump) in your 2019 or 2020 Tacoma or Tundra eats itself, I can tell you why.

 

[Rubone]

Sadly town like Ilion do not have the political clout to change what affects them directly. Just the way it is.

 

[TRX]

all the handguns

Cough. R51. Cough cough. Para-Ordnance. Cough...

 

[mcb]

Cough. R51. Cough cough. Para-Ordnance. Cough...

From 2015 onward all Remington handguns were made in Huntsville.

The first version of the R51 was designed in Elizabethtown KY at Remington's R&D facility and was assembled in Charlottesville NC (ie Para Ordnance), but that predated the Huntsville facility. The R&D facility was moved to Huntsville in early 2015 and the Gen 2 redesign was done (finished) in Huntsville and all the Gen 2 R51's were made in Huntsville.

In late 2015 after the Huntsville facility was stood up, Para Ordnance as a brand was shut down and the products rebranded as Remington and made in Huntsville (ie the P16 became the R1 Limited with minor changes, my own early R1 Limited still has some Para marked parts in it.).

 

[Slamfire]

Remington settled in Huntsville Alabama because the Huntsville City Government won the Corporate Welfare Game! Huntsville gave more Corporate Welfare than any other city, and thus, lost money. The irony of the Corporate Welfare Game is, the winning locality actually loses money in the short, medium, and long run.

You can bet Remington's owners are carrying their beggar's bowl, looking for the greatest sucker, and once they do, their decision will be 100% based on the size of the public subsidies they receive.

However, Remington would be pulling in billions of dollars if they claimed they are making electric cars or trucks. And they would only have to go through the motions.

This was interesting

Rivian, the Government Unicorn

WSJ 11 Nov 2021

The EV truck maker is worth $120.5 billion. It has sold 156 vehicles.

Twelve-year-old Rivian is being hailed as the next Tesla. Yet when Tesla went public in 2010 it reported $93 million in revenue and was valued at $1.7 billion. Rivian’s sales are almost all to its own employees and it projected at most $1 million in revenue in the third quarter. On Wednesday it nonetheless raised nearly $12 billion. Shares later surged as euphoric investors rushed in, and at $120.5 billion Rivian is the fifth largest auto maker in the world by market value. Ponder that one.

This is an extraordinary moment. We are watching the government literally underwrite a new industry before our eyes, steering capital to EV makers come what may. In post-capitalist America, you can still become a billionaire overnight—if you’re in a business favored by politicians.