Remington Rand 1911

[BHPshooter]

Sorry, this is OT...

I bought a $9.00 Magazine the other day that looked interesting called "The Complete Book of the 1911"

I have the same book! Well worth the price just for the gun porn.

Okay, back to the discussion at hand.

Carry on.

Wes

 

[1911Tuner]

Stem Bind

Whew! That'll take a lotta writin' to describe everything that CAN cause it,
and what to do about it.

Ever used a bolt-action rifle with ammo that was a little too long, and the
round got stuck part-way in the chamber? That's stem bind.

Possible causes are:

Ammo too short or too long.

Barrel sitting too high in the frame...Possibly also caused by lower lug feet
too long, and holding the barrel too far off the saddle.

Barrel throat too high in relation to the incoming round.

Barrel throat has a sharp corner at the top that digs into the side of the
case as the bullet nose tries to deflect off the roof of the chamber.

Rough breechface in conjunction with too-steep angle of entry.

Any combination or all of the above.

As I pointed out in the barrel link post, If the front radius of the lower lug
is incorrect, or...in the case of the barrel riding the link...the link is too long
at that radius, the barrel timing can cause a stem bind condition. What
happens is that the incoming round strikes the throat at some point. When
the round pushes the barrel forward, the link (or the lower lug radius) also
forces the barrel to move UPWARD, and forces the round to enter the chamber at a sharper angle. The slide is pushing, the barrel is moving up,
the bullet nose strikes the roof of the chamber at a sharp angle, and you
have a stem bind.

The cure is to lower the angle of cartridge entry. Sometimes a simple
bevel/radius/polish of the top of the throat will do the trick. Sometimes
it gets more involved than that. If the tolerances stack up against you,
it does get more involved. It often involves refitting of the barrel in the
frame by radius filing about .003 inch from the bottom of the barrel at the
chamber, and working the lug feet a little to bring the feet deeper into the
frame so that the barrel will go to bed. It may require removing an additional .003 inch from the frame's bed itself. (The saddle that the barrel
lays in when it's linked down.) The barrel isn't actually supposed to touch
the saddle in linkdown, but most do, and it doesn't seem to hurt anything.
(There should be about .0005 inch clearance)

If the lower lug is fitted so that it cams the barrel all the way up, it may take reshaping the lower lug's front radius a little. If the barrel is riding the link around that radius, a .003 inch shorter link usually works. Even though the original link is bearing none of the vertical lockup, it can still be a little too long at the lug's radius. In this case, the shorter link will delay the barrel rise for a few degrees, and let the round get deeper into the chamber and thus easier to break over to horizontal as the slide goes to battery.

Mention was made of a straighter shot at the chamber. If the pistol is
timed correctly, it's not necessary. I set my pistols up to feed...period.
The test is this:

Remove the recoil spring and plug. Insert a fully loaded magzine into the
magwell. Pull the slide fully rearward and push it to battery with one finger
against the rear of the slide. I use the back of the rear sight for my finger.
The pistol should strip the top round and go to battery smoothly. I push with about 8-10 pounds of force...not briskly, but not in slow-motion. either. If the slide doesn't go to battery easily, I either have some stem bind, or too much tension on the extractor. Remove the extractor and repeat. If it feeds, it's the extractor. If it doesn't change, it's stem bind.

Removing metal from the frame saddle and the barrel should be done carefully, and all radii should be followed closely. Changing the angle
of the frame at the top of the ramp can bring you to grief quickly. Removing
metal from the front of the lug is also tedious, and critical that it be done
carefully and correctly.

Swapping the link should also be done carefully, and only after making sure that the shorter link doesn't get the slidestop pin into a bind with the
lower barrel lug, both as it rounds the front radius and in vertical lock. The
link should be completely free and loose when the barrel is in lockup.

If lowering the barrel into the frame is called for, it's far better to take a little metal from several places than all from one area. With so many
frames and barrels out-of-spec these days, stem bind resulting from
one or all of these issues occurs frequently, so don't automatically
assume that the barrel throat and feed ramp need work. Overpolishing
these areas has ruined many a frame, and a mirror polish isn't really necessary anyway. It's mainly done because it's expected, and it doesn't hurt anything as long as it's done correctly. I guess that it's proof that
work was done, more than anything else...and it looks pretty.

Hope this answers your questions. I'll stand by if you have any more.
Gotta go watch a movie...Be back in a couple of hours.

Tuner

 

[silent one]

Tuner,
If I had your knowledge I would write a book on the care and maintenance
of the .45 pistol,with a trouble shooting guide. I've spoken with a lot of people who are supposedly ''in the know'' who don't know 10% of what you do. I'm the type who isn't easily impressed, but I have to say in your case ''I'm impressed''.
Good Luck, and be safe.


''Semper Fidelis''

SILENT ONE

 

[1911Tuner]

Books

Silentone said:


Tuner,
If I had your knowledge I would write a book on the care and maintenance
of the .45 pistol,with a trouble shooting guide.

Sometmes it feels like I already have!

I appreciate it silentone, more than you know. The reason you're impressed is because you have a logical mind and you understand
machinery. When you read it, it makes sense. If you lacked these
things, it wouldn't. You'd be surprised at the flame wars that I've
gotten started by stating a simple fact or observation. Somethin' like:

"Letting the slide slam on an empty gun will soon knock it out of whack.
Here's why..." WOWZER! You'd think I had said that we deserved the 9-11 attack.

I almost had to fight a guy in a gun shop once after explaining exactly what I just did on this thread. His pistol was jamming, and when he showed me his ramp and throat job, I told him as gently as I could that he
had made his problem worse. He wound up stomping out of the shop
with his screwed up pistol in hand. I heard later that he took the gun to
Tommy Abernathy, who told him the same thing. Tommy refused to try to
fix the gun, and suggested that he order a new frame when he could get a
pistol permit. A month later, I got the gun back, brought in by somebody
else...friend or brother or cousin, I guess. It took some massaging, but I got it to work after about 5 hours. I stuck a note in the end of the muzzle
to tell him that if I wasn't such a forgiving soul, the job would have cost him
more than a new gun. He never came back into the shop until after I left. Guess why...Yep. Another ramp and throat job gone haywire.

Later on!

Tuner

 

[JackM]

Hey, Tuner:
I love your stuff. I got a Remington-Rand back in 1967 and it's still my favourite. Keep on writing.

Bye
Jack

 

[silent one]

Tuner,
Like I said, if you wrote that book, and that guy who screwed up the ramp and throat job had a copy of your book, he might have performed the job correctly by following your instructions. Many of your answers to problems with weapons aren't in any books that I have read. These are answers from a man who has been there and done it.
Tuner,WRITE THE BOOK!!. When you do, I want to be one of the first to get a copy.
BTW, thanks for the compliment about having a mechanical mind. I have spent the last 40 years building high performance race engines for Corvettes and street rods. I also did total restorations on corvettes as well as buildind the street rods.
Thanks, good luck, and be safe.

''SEMPER FIDELIS''


SILENT ONE

 

[BluesBear]

Tuner,

I am sure you have seen the myriad of books titled, "The Idiots Guide To..."

I think it's about time someone wrote one or at least something similar for the 1911.

I am lucky enough to have played with 1911s since 1969. back when you could buy them cheap, parts were cheap and abundant, and if you messed one up it wasn't the end of the world.
But there are many now who haven't had that luxury.

What is needed is a complete guide for the 1911 in everyday language.
From what I have read in the six months I have been a member here and the prior six months that I lurked is that you are indeed the man to do it.
You have the ability to discuss and explain the subtleties of the pistol without being condescending. Novices can understand what you say while us old timers still learn even more.

It would be a shame for your knowledge to someday be lost. If you write it down it would become an education and inspiration for generations.

Please consider it.

 

[vanfunk]

Just a data point...

One of my Remington-Rand 1911A1's has gone through two years of service in World War II, two years of service in Korea, two years of service in Vietnam, and 2 years of service (ahem, um, range time) with me. The durned thing finally pooped out when it's firing pin broke somewhere around round 125,000. I had a USGI replacement in it in three days and it was back on duty. It'll still hold 3" groups at 25 yards with generic 230 grain ball and those teensy-weensy sights.

Just remember this:

Inside every typewriter, there's a 1911A1 waiting to get out!

Based on my and my family's experience with USGI 1911's and A1's (overshadowed by many on this forum), I'd be drawn to conclude that those poor old GI's were just trying to save a little "dog" face when complaining of their "no barn-hittin' mule-kickin'" .45's.

vanfunk

 

[1911Tuner]

Vanfunk's Rand

Van said:

The durned thing finally pooped out when it's firing pin broke somewhere around round 125,000.

Yeah! Those Rands had some el-cheapo firing pins. None of mine lasted
much beyond 100,000 rounds. Really pissed me off too. I finally got
tired of havin' to replace'em so often and popped for some Colt GI pins.
Seems like I had to give a pirate a buck apiece for'em back in '68.
Well...I guess it was worth it. Haven't had one break since then...

Dontcha wish that old girl could talk though?

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[vanfunk]

A buck for a firing pin? Sheesh, I got taken. I shelled out seven for mine. That equates to 11.6 cents per year for parts replacement. Oh, well, I shoulda known this 1911 thing would be expensive...

What's next to fail...
probably the 60 year old USGI magazine spring... or the 60 year old hammer/trigger/sear spring... or the 60 year old mainspring....


Okay, Okay, I HAVE replaced the recoil spring a couple of times .

In conclusion, prudence must be given its due when planning for the long haul with a USGI 1911... put $20 aside for parts replacement in your lifetime.

And please, pass the change along to your grandkids. As Wilford Brimely would say, "It's the right thing to do".

vanfunk

 

[FPrice]

ARGGGGGGHHHHHHHH

Went to look a couple of S&W revolvers and made the mistake of going past the semi-auto displays.

There it was.

A really good-looking (very good condition) Remington-Rand 1911A1. Not much visible wear (but heavily oiled...by the store I think), all markings looked good according to J. C. Harrison's "U.S. Pistols & Revolvers 1909-1945". Serial number was in the 1.5 million range putting this about 1943.

With a price tag of $1250.00

Why do I do this to myself????

:banghead:

 

[Old Fuff]

I would go back and look at the revolvers .......

 

[1911Tuner]

Rands

Old Fuff said:

I would go back and look at the revolvers

Yeah...That's a bit stiff for a Rand unless there's documentation of it
hittin' the beaches at Normandy or Guadalcanal, or bein' 100% original.

Now, if the guy has one in that price range that says:
Union Switch & Signal I'll fight over it...

Cheers!
Tuner

 

[azrael]

yuppers to what tuner said.

over a signal .45?? there would be a fight down here as well

I have always wanted a Remington-Rand 45 for myself but havent found one in good shape for a decent price..(yea I am a cheapskate)

I can see it now...

Remington-rand .45 carried in a Elephant skin Beltslide with matching belt and mag carriers....mmmmmm

 

[FPrice]

Old Fuff...

"I would go back and look at the revolvers ......."

See this post:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62216

 

[1911Tuner]

1911 Tale

Hey azrael...Got one for ya.

A year or three ago, a knock came at the door one Saturday mornin'..
Guy in bibbed overalls...Not uncommon in these parts, but he looked like
a stunt double for a character outta "Deliverance"...

"Mr Greenjeans says: Man up at the pawnshop says yew kin fix Army .45s"

"Been known to tinker with'em...wassup?"

He unwrapped what had to be the most completely rusted pistol
I'd ever seen. He had left in the leaky trunk of a car after a fishing trip
to Kure Beach. Found it 3 weeks later.

"It don't hafta be purty or nothin'. I just wanna git hit ta wurk ag'in."

"This is gonna take a while...Come back Monday."
"M-kay"

It took me almost an hour to get it apart. I went at the rust a dental pick, 600-grit wet or dry and fourple aught steel wool soaked in Hoppes #9, trying to preserve as much of it as possible. As I worked, letters began to appear.

Excellent! I worked a little while longer and the letters got clearer. I saw
U--ni-n Sw---h & Sig--- !!!!! :banghead:

People like that make peacefully disposed men do violent things. It was all
I could do to keep from shootin' him when he came back. He was pleased,
though... I wanted to cry.

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[azrael]

UGH!!!!!!!

I just cant think of anything else to say

 

[BluesBear]

Look at the bright side,

At least it didn't say Si_g_r

That would be justifiable homicide.

 

[Old Fuff]

Tuner, and others that might be interested …

Be aware that pistols with Singer or Union Switch & Signal marked slides were not necessarily made by those companies. U.S. GI pistols do not carry the manufacturer’s name. Consequently changing the slide can alter the pistol’s identity.

When (or if) you come across one of these rare (and therefore valuable) birds don’t jump to conclusions until: (1) You check the serial number to be sure it’s within a block of numbers assigned to the particular company, and (2) be sure the inspector’s mark on the frame matches the mark of a government inspector (usually a military officer) who was assigned to the gun’s maker during the time when it was made.

As some of these guns move into the $1,000.00 range and higher some fakes will appear. To make matters more confusing, guns that were arsenal rebuilt often had the slides replaced, and in the process no particular attention was paid to markings. So far as the arsenals were concerned all slides were equal, and markings didn’t matter.

Knowing the exact details of what a certain gun was comprised of can save one from making a costly mistake. Recently a friend showed me an almost mint Remington-Rand that he’d recently purchased for “only†twelve hundred bucks (give or take). It was in nice shape, but the frame (and gun) had been made by Colt in 1917 and later rebuilt at the Augusta (GA) Arsenal sometime after World War Two. No, the seller wasn’t a crook. The problem was that neither he nor the buyer really knew what they had.

 

[dsk]

Sounds to me like Bubba in the bib overalls didn't know what he had either. Worst-case scenario, he had a $3,000 pistol and reduced its value to about $150 (total worth of the salvagable parts). He could've bought another car that didn't leak AND an extra pair of overalls with the money from that pistol.

 

[1911Tuner]

re: Fakes

Amen Fuff, and thanks for bringin' that up.

I've run into some fakes that were very good, and had the owners not
been honest as to their origins, they would have fooled all but the
experts. Others were so bad, that only a blind man could been sucked in.

A couple years back at a Greensboro NC show, I bumped into this character who had a Colt 11-A1 slide on what appeared to be an Essex parked frame with a Springfield barrel. The asking price was 1500 dollars!

When I inquired about the high price, he said that it was an all original
1940 production Colt, and whipped out the documentation to go along with the scam...and began quoting serial number ranges. He had an
answer for every nosy question that I could come up with.

"Howcum there ain't no inspector or ordnance marks on this here pistol?"

"Well, in the days just before Pearl, the Army was sendin' special troops
into Burma and the Philippines and they didn't want any connection to
the U.S. Gub'mint, so they left the marks off. This here pistol was issued
to a Captain who was assigned to Merrill's Marauders. He was one of the
recon team that was in Burma as early as 1939" (Whoops! Quite a
trick with a 1940 production pistol)

"I see. That barrel looks like stainless. What's that little U-shaped cut there?"

"That's Colt's early experiment with chrome platin' to keep the barrels from
rustin' in the jungles."

"What about that little cut? Never saw that before."

That's a critical area for dirt and carbon foulin' to get out. It keeps the gun from jammin' when it's real dirty. Makes the bullet feed better. See...when
a 1911 fires, it makes a lotta carbon from the powder, and that keeps it from buildin up at the top of the chamber." (He was startin' to get a little
antsy at this point, and kept talkin' to other customers between questions.)

"I see."

I held his feet to the fire long enough to draw a small crowd, and he soon
got too busy to talk to me any more because."Well, I gotta get to sellin'
some stuff. If you want the gun, I'll knock it down to 1200 dollars and toss in a clip. Best I can do."

 

[dsk]

Tuner, you should've kept him talkin'. The brown matter was piling up around him so fast he'd have drowned in it eventually.

 

[tex_n_cal]

Dad I think had a RR that went to my Brother. Hopefully he kept all the parts that came with it, and didn't swap in Kimber replacements