Remington to re-release R51 later this year!

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Sad to say....the latest reports from those who got pistols in the first batch of re-released versions isn't making me all warm and fuzzy inside that they got things exactly right this time around. Something tells me that they'll continue to get guns back with issues from the 'Great Unwashed' as we tend to do things to guns they don't account for. Many of these returns might be perfectly fine...just don't work right for that particular owner.

Remember the KT P-40? (40 S&W version of P-11) About 99% of the guns sent back for repair (according to someone who said they worked there IIRC) were OK and it was just the owner who couldn't hold the gun tight enough to make it work so technically they were being 'limp wristed'. Some will opine that any gun that won't work when being 'limp wristed' is defective...and I'd agree to a point.

Besides Remington with their original 51, NOBODY was successful using the Pederson delay locked system. The Swiss tried to use it on a sub-machine gun...and withdrew the gun after a couple trouble-filled years where they proved very difficult to build so they'd actually work...and they didn't hold up well...plus were very expensive to produce being as they were so fussy to build. A good design lends itself to production...and this is likely why no other Pederson Locked guns were built as it is difficult to get working right and time will soon tell whether the guns that do work continue to as they age. Seeing the battering inside a couple posted on the Web I'd have to doubt that they'll hold up to a lot of shooting.
 
Besides Remington with their original 51, NOBODY was successful using the Pederson delay locked system. The Swiss tried to use it on a sub-machine gun...and withdrew the gun after a couple trouble-filled years where they proved very difficult to build so they'd actually work
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First I've heard of anyone else using the Hesitation Lock for anything; what was the gun's model name?

Oh, and I wouldn't necessarily write something off because it was found to be troublesome, finicky, over complicated, or expensive in a Swiss execution --I think they changed standard-issue SMGs like ten times between the World Wars as new & crazier designs were proved out with Weimar Republic funding ;)

In any event, the concept has been used twice, and was quite successful in one of them (the Model 51 was a legitimately good performer, just a bit expensive compared to blowback contemporaries...just like the High Power 9mm)

A good design lends itself to production...and this is likely why no other Pederson Locked guns were built as it is difficult to get working right
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I've said before, I'll say again; I don't think a 1911 clone built to the R51 1.0's standards would work well at all, and would likely be legitimately dangerous to its user. Considering the poor workmanship exhibited in my example (think bad Soviet puppetstate SKS made on Vodka Friday) I think it performed pretty well in the face of crippling birth defects. Ream a 1911 chamber 2/3 the way in with a dull out-of-round tool and tell me how well she cycles ;)

TCB
 
http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/SIG_MKMO

From what I've read on them....not very successful and expensive to produce. And..once the Pederson lock was removed and a very small amount of mass added to the bolt they worked OK. This is my suspicion with the Remington 51 being close to working as a blow-back only gun...so the Pederson lock only responsible for a tiny bit of the function. Using it in a full-house +P 9mm is an entirely different proposition...and I was curious as to how this would work out. The final Jury is still out and it will be interesting to see how it fares now that the problems have been 'ironed out'.

Particularly interesting to me is the ammo sensitivity...or not. My little KT P-11 will run 147's all day long but refuses to eject 115's or lighter which is a totally fine compromise I'm willing to make. The slide is well controlled with the heavy bullets and is showing no excessive battering which I think would be likely if it were sprung down to work with the lightweight bullets. How sensitive the R51 will be at least will give the various gun scribes plenty to test and evaluate.:)
 
I'd heard of the MKMS which was a standard blowback, didn't realize they did an earlier version with this system. I wouldn't call it complicated (it is compared to a blowback, but so is a 1911) since the action looks basically identical to an inverted SKS with a poorly-fitted bolt :p. The patent drawings, though probably not super accurate, also seem to indicate a 'dwell' length of about 1/2" before unlocking, which seems quite lengthy considering most 9mm handguns fully unlock after ~1/4" slide travel at most --this could be the cause for some of their issues (that and this system being applied to an open-bolt design, which imparts less driving inertia to the bolt than a close-bolt system)

so the Pederson lock only responsible for a tiny bit of the function. Using it in a full-house +P 9mm is an entirely different proposition...and I was curious as to how this would work out
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Well, the R51 slide is a whole lot lighter than a Hi Point's, and mine shoots +P just fine, their recoil being pretty much identical to normal 9mm (just louder), so I'd say the action is doing a bit more than 'very little.' The original 51 was also quite lightweight & small for a 32/380, yet has a reputation as a very comfortable smooth shooter for the same reason.

It should be mentioned that even simple blowback designs had some bone-headed examples (like the exceedingly large, heavy, and painful to shoot 9mm Largo blowbacks Spain produced for a time) before subsequent designers settled on the best solutions. Even more so for locked-breech recoil-operated guns, which bounced from Borchardt to Mauser to Luger to 1911 before finally settling into the 'Browning' groove of design (despite hangers-on like the Savage and Walther), but not for long before the SIG/Glock locking/cam system supplanted it.

We've identified exactly three times this design has even been tried (prototype or otherwise) and two of them are largely identical; I'm not convinced the tech simply isn't just stuck at an early stage of development because of easy alternate solutions already available. It must have been fairly impressive to reach large-scale manufacture all three times it's been tried. Doesn't mean there aren't advantages over the more popular schemes, just that we haven't figured them all out yet.

I need to find a beater Simonov & spare bolt, and see if milling the lug back a small bit allows it to even try cycling without a gas piston.

TCB
 
Which one and why...

Kahr PM9; because it is proven, even though the trigger pull is looong, but smooth.

R51: after 2 years of redesign and testing, mine still have some flaws, already put 500 rds plus down range and still not "break in", very disappointed. May be just mine that is not perfect...

Haiauphixu.
 
haiauphixu said:
Kahr PM9; because it is proven, even though the trigger pull is looong, but smooth.

R51: after 2 years of redesign and testing, mine still have some flaws, already put 500 rds plus down range and still not "break in", very disappointed. May be just mine that is not perfect...

Haiauphixu.
Click to expand...
Kahr PM 9 is broken in at 250 rounds and its accurate.
 
I did not buy an original R51, so I am not influenced by the failures and delays and frustrations that followed. But I did claim a second gen model yesterday when it arrived at Larry's Pistol & Pawn in Huntsville, Alabama.

I was already familiar with the gun, having been privileged to participate in pre-production testing of the gun some months back. At the close of that testing, I decided I "needed" the pistol when finally released in gen II version.

With that background, I put 100 rounds down range this morning, half 115 grain ball ammo and half 115 grain defense hollow-points, and I was extremely pleased with the gun's accuracy, ease of shooting, and reliability. I like the gun, and (at least for the gun I have), Remington got it right.

I would not hesitate to recommend the gun to others.

BOARHUNTER
 
Hmm, it sounds like the store models are getting a better rep than the ones returned to customers (which were still using a lot of legacy parts from what we could tell). Seems promising.

Not to dig you Boarhunter, but;
"privileged to participate in pre-production testing of the gun some months back"
"I would not hesitate to recommend the gun to others."
is a song & dance we've heard before. Not saying you're biased, or were shown optimized models that don't match production ones, but that is the exact scenario that played out two years ago with the glowing reviews for the privately-demonstrated pre-production pistols heralding the abortions that were ultimately purchased (mine was at least fairly decent, but still way below acceptable first world production quality at any price point)

TCB
 
If they get it reliable (and considering Remington in it's current iteration that's a big if), considering the features and characteristics, i will be a buyer at somewhere near the original price point just like Patton was a buyer of its grandfather. Just not today.:eek:
 
I had the opportunity to fire one today and it does not fit my hand. After only 10 rounds I had a painful abrasion on the web of my hand caused, I think, by the underside of the slide. It shot well enough, but the ergos just don't work for me.

pmacb
(Lurker Supreme)



Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
Just held one for the first time today at a Sportsmans in Oregon. Slide bite is going to be a major problem with this model,?... Even if this ends up being flawless production wise, the slide bite problem will never go away, and doom this for any future success....
 
Barnbwt,

The early testing convinced me to buy a personal gun for myself; the gun I ultimately purchased was the first to hit the store for retail sale and not otherwise unique from the other guns now available to the public. My personal opinion is based on my experience putting 100 rounds yesterday through this gun. I am satisfied and thought I would share.

I have no relationship with Remington beyond living in Huntsville, Alabama, Remington's new home.

Makes no difference to me whether you remain skeptical or not or whether you buy a Remington or not.

I simply shared my personal, unbiased experience.

BOARHUNTER
 
I'll stick with the Kahr PM 9 with the Poly rifling in barrel for better accuracy.
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To be fair, the one thing Remington did very well was making an accurate barrel. I don't know if it's because they are a somewhat heavy profile (thick) for an autopistol barrel, but I found my pistol to be extremely accurate. It obviously helps that the gun fits my hand so well, but considering the mediocre trigger I was surprised to be hitting targets at 25yds as well as I do with my five-seven or revolvers on single action. They need to have the group that cuts the rifling also do the chambers, since that feature is what appears to have been the root cause of much of the trouble (tight/rough chamber = failure to go into battery = jams, 'out' of battery case bulges, pressure spikes, and also failure to eject)

Slide bite is going to be a major problem with this model,?... Even if this ends up being flawless production wise, the slide bite problem will never go away, and doom this for any future success....
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I seriously still don't understand this. The ducktail of the gun extends back a good 3/4", and the slide rails don't start until about 1/4" above that. My R51's slide is never less than 1/8" above my flesh. Are people's thumb-webs really so fatty that they fill up an inch-deep pocket, and spill over nearly another quarter inch to where the slide is? Is that why 1911's with 1.5" beavertails are so popular? I thought it was just an aesthetic.

I had the opportunity to fire one today and it does not fit my hand. After only 10 rounds I had a painful abrasion on the web of my hand caused, I think, by the underside of the slide. It shot well enough, but the ergos just don't work for me.
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Slide bite in a High Power, I can see how a high grip can cause that; not on the shrouded R51, though. Do you mean the underside of the ducktail where the safety groove is? I'm arriving at the conclusion the gun simply doesn't fit some peoples' hands, much like the five-seven or Tokarev pistols with their long, narrow grip profiles. I personally find such pistols comfy since the first joint of my fingers is kind of long, but perhaps if a shooter is forced to rotate the pistol further toward their thumb in the palm to reach around to the trigger, the recoil motion is less controlled and skin rubs or slaps on the frame during firing?

Boarhunter; please don't take my comments the wrong way. I am merely stating what the previous history of the pistol's reception/rollout was, and why buyers would be understandably skeptical of any reviews based upon pre-production or 'reviewer' pistols, simply because they were so different from the delivered product last time. Oddly enough, this go-around it seems like the folks who had their pistols replaced had more quality quibbles than those being found on the shelves :confused:

My personal opinion is based on my experience putting 100 rounds yesterday through this gun. I am satisfied and thought I would share.
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Is it still a 'fast' gun? I found that whatever the Pedersen action is doing, it makes it supremely easy to do rapid fire compared to Browning actions (my theory is that the lack of a heavy barrel slamming to a stop halfway through the cycle makes the recoil impulse smoother)

TCB
 
Barnbwt,

In the limited shooting I have done with the gun (100 rounds is just a drop in the bucket), it does seem fast and quick to return to target. I have more mags on order and plan to put many more rounds through it over the next month. And if it remains reliable, I will shoot it in our local IDPA-type practice for the best test I can give it.

I already see the mag release will be a bit of a challenge, apparently being located further from my thumb than most of my 1911s.

Point of impact for my gun is low, corrected by placing the front sight dot over the intended target rather than below as my other guns are set up.

The trigger is surprisingly nice, particularly at this price point.

I do not see this gun replacing my current carry guns (CZ RAMI and Springfield EMP), but I am satisfied with the gun so far.

BOARHUNTER
 
Boarhunter...how does your R-51 look inside where the slide contacts the locking block? Some early guns have reported (and shown) severe deformation of the contact surfaces which did look like improper material hardness in such a stressed area. Would be very comforting if yours does not show this deformation...which would seem to make the ones reported earlier might have been outliers and not SOP.
 
I had a chance to hold and play with a new retail model. It feels less gritty than before (notice I said less). It is definitely no Beretta. I am still not convinced that it is a decent gun. I will stick to what I already have.
 
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