Repairing a WORTHWHILE zinc pistol frame

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Monac

Monac

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OK, let's get this out of the way up front: I'm stupid.

Because I'm stupid, I failed to notice that this pistol had an obviously cracked frame and bought it anyway:

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/584082390

Also, just to ram home the stupidity, I bought it "as is" and therefore have no cause for complaint. I wanted it too much.

The only book I have that mentions what the frame is made out of ("Pistols of the World", 4th edition) says it is cast zinc alloy. It appears to have no finish of any kind.

The crack goes clear through the frame; the frame is being held together by the trigger guard. The barrel mounting is on the forward, smaller section.

What kind of repairs are available for a gun like this? I found this thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-394449.html

in the archives, which was helpful. Would any of the repair techniques mentioned render the gun even slightly shootable, or would they be simply cosmetic when applied to a point in the frame that apparently receives significant stress?

I never intended to shoot this gun much, which is one of the reasons I did not buy a spare magazine from the same seller (the other reason was that it was $500), but to me one of the points of actually buying a collectible gun is to be able to shoot it at least a little, in order to learn what it is like. If that is no longer an option with this pistol, I will be further saddened but not surprised.

These guns are very scarce. There is about zero possibility of a stripped frame being available.

Thanks in advance for any help, and learn from my bad example.
 
I would contact Gunbroker, as his pictures seem to be intentionally avoiding displaying the crack.
He knew it was there, the edge of his pictures go right up to, but exclude it. He was fully aware of what he was doing and was misleading.
If you contact Gunbroker, they may be able to do something about it. Maybe not much, but something.
 
Were you aware of the cracked frame prior to the sale?

I know the ad said it was 'as is', however I do not see where the seller was honest about it's condition. If you are not happy, I would pursue getting a refund. Contact Gunbroker and let them know the problem. It's worth a shot.........




.
 
Monac

I would think that if you couldn't get any satisfaction from Gunbroker or the seller concerning the cracked frame, I would look into seeing if one of the epoxy resins mentioned in the other thread might work. Maybe try to find a gunsmith who has some knowledge or background in making this kind of repair.

By the way, it's really a pretty unique and cool looking pistol!
 
Acera said:
I know the ad said it was 'as is', however I do not see where the seller was honest about it's condition. If you are not happy, I would pursue getting a refund. Contact Gunbroker and let them know the problem. It's worth a shot.........




.
Click to expand...

This. This pistol was clearly misrepresented, there is no mention of the crack anywhere in the description, and the "as-is" does not cover misrepresentation of the item, IMO.

bannockburn said:
Monac

I would think that if you couldn't get any satisfaction from Gunbroker or the seller concerning the cracked frame, I would look into seeing if one of the epoxy resins mentioned in the other thread might work. Maybe try to find a gunsmith who has some knowledge or background in making this kind of repair.

By the way, it's really a pretty unique and cool looking pistol!
Click to expand...

This. I hate to break it to you, but gunbroker isn't going to do anything to help you.
One of the reasons I will NEVER use gunbroker again.
 
Thanks all! I should have said that I am not going to pursue anything with the seller. You may be right, but I consider that I am the one who made a mistake.

Something I did not mention is that the seller listed this pistol at least once before without getting a single bid, and that no one else bid against me when I won it, even though the seller reduced the price 10% from his first listing. Seeing no interest in a gun this rare should have been a red flag to anyone. (I am not condoning remaining silent about a gun's hidden flaws and hiding behind "as is". I am saying this gun's flaw was obvious to everyone else who was interested in it. That puts the burden on me.)

Now I am trying to make the best of it and regard it as a project to be fixed, as if it had cracked like this on the first round I fired. Thanks for any help in that direction.

PS - I also already had these photos of the same make of pistol, which would have also warned me if I had bothered to re-check them:
 

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There is no way in hell I wouldn't at least talk to Gunbroker and the seller.

Clear misrepresentation of the condition. Absolutely zero mention of the frame being cracked in half in the description, especially given the price.

It's like buying a car that the owner drops off and doesn't let you check over. His description mentions the excellent paint job and the new tired but fails to mention that it is missing a transmission.
 
Explain to me why it is your fault that the seller swindled you by selling you a broken gun?

Don't understand why you think you are at fault because of this. Did you know about the crack before purchasing the gun?


That is a lot of money for a paperweight....................


.





.
 
The seller was not honest about the gun's frame having a crack. I would pursue him giving you a refund.

One of the big reasons I won't use Gunbroker, you don't have a chance to examine a used firearm, and none of the swindlers take a credit card.
 
It's a really neat gun, too bad it's broken. I would be putting an email in to gunbroker. The detail pictures are very misleading and since it's not described as a non-functional and/or dangerous weapon I would be all over the seller and gunbroker.
 
Monac said:
Thanks all! I should have said that I am not going to pursue anything with the seller. You may be right, but I consider that I am the one who made a mistake.

Something I did not mention is that the seller listed this pistol at least once before without getting a single bid, and that no one else bid against me when I won it, even though the seller reduced the price 10% from his first listing. Seeing no interest in a gun this rare should have been a red flag to anyone. (I am not condoning remaining silent about a gun's hidden flaws and hiding behind "as is". I am saying this gun's flaw was obvious to everyone else who was interested in it. That puts the burden on me.)

Now I am trying to make the best of it and regard it as a project to be fixed, as if it had cracked like this on the first round I fired. Thanks for any help in that direction.

PS - I also already had these photos of the same make of pistol, which would have also warned me if I had bothered to re-check them:
Click to expand...

Its your decision, of course,
But this guy scammed you. You can blame yourself and I'm sure the unscrupulous dealer would prefer it that way, but the plain facts are, whoever sold you that gun scammed you. It is broken, nonfunctional, and potentially dangerous if fired...and they made no mention of that in their posting.
Think of it this way.
You can eat $2000 dollars and let the seller win, reward them with your hard earned money and let them go about their business of scamming honest people
Or you can at least notify Gunbroker that they have a scammer.
As someone who has been scammed on Gunbroker,
I'd at least hope you'd notify them, and maybe someone else doesn't fall for one of that persons scams.
 
You are being too hard on yourself. That is misrepresentation. I also don't know if that is a crack or a cut. Makes me wonder if it was cut to demill it in which case I would hardly say it "survived". I wonder if it even holds together in one piece if you pick it up.
 
If it's an obvious crack AND if the pictures don't show such an obvious crack AND it's not mentioned...then a case for misrepresentation COULD be made.

Now, the obvious rebuttal from the seller would probably be "it had to have been damaged after the buyer received it".

Be that as it may be, this is a problem and you shouldn't have had to deal with receiving an obviously damaged firearm in the first place.

Send pics along with your complaint, plus the page link to the auction you bought it from. Let Gunbroker deal with it.
 
TIG repair, maybe? It's zinc, but I assume it can be welded with a low enough heat level by a steady hand. Solder might be another option, if it can melt low enough. Let's be serious here, if it was zinc in the first place, it can't possibly be under that much stress, and it's certainly cool enough to warrant saving from the scrap heap, regardless any misrepresentation or misunderstanding.

TCB
 
Thanks, barnbwt. I have a friend who works for a metal products manufacturing company locally. I'll ask him what he thinks of TIG welding for this thing and whether there is a company he can recommend for it. Would I be right in assuming that that would be a more durable repair than the products mentioned in the archived thread?

He's a gun collector too - in fact, he has one of these Ermas. I e-mailed him about this one before I bid on it, but wires got crossed and I didn't talk to him until after I received it. He did tell me how to dismantle it, which is when I found out that the crack went all the way through the frame.

This is the earliest production zinc-framed gun I ever heard of, so I guess the properties of the material were not adequately understood when it was made. The rest of the gun seems very well made, and the magazine is almost ridiculously sturdy - it is fabricated out of the thickest steel I have ever seen in a pistol magazine
 
That is a $2k paper weight. No way in hell I'd roll over and give up 2 grand. At least notify Gunbroker to change his A+ rating.

Sent from my HUAWEI G620-A2 using Tapatalk
 
You're not going to safely repair a cracked zinc frame.
The gun is junk.
Denis
 
Before we go off "half-cocked" here and start saying something can't be repaired, let's remember that we don't know what the frame is made from.

A little more research would seem to be in order, if the OP wishes to pursue this. I haven't found anything on the frame itself, but it's worth noting that various models of the pistol were tapped on the frame forward of the trigger guard to accept frame weights for stability in competition shooting. I find it difficult to believe that a world class Olympic target pistol would have a zinc alloy frame so tapped.

I also have a hard time believing a gun which so successfully competed in the Olympics and had "ended the Olympic reign of the Colt Woodsman Target model" would use Zinc alloy in its construction.

Also, Zinc alloys for guns can't be blued or finished like other alloys. They have to be painted. This might help give you a clue as to whether the frame is a Zinc alloy or not. Likewise, the general condition of the frame should provide a clue...Zinc alloys don't generally hold up good appearances over many decades, compared to steel.

Do some more research, maybe take the gun to someone experienced enough to tell. THEN make a decision on repairs.
 
At least report it to GB. You have pictures that the gun was broken when you bought it. You have proof that it wasn't even casually brushed on that the frame was toast. That is good evidence right there.

At least write the seller! He may not even know the thing wasn't supposed to be like that.

If you do nothing you paid two grand plus repairs on a prop gun that you more or less had to convert to a gun you could safely fire.
 
Thanks, RetiredUSNChief. I am uncertain about the frame really is. As far as I know, the Germans were doing more work with aluminum pistol frames than they were with zinc, although the later Gustloff 32 pistol apparently had a zinc frame.

The Erma frame seems to have no finish of any kind and is an even overall medium grey color with no signs of corrosion anywhere, including on the surfaces of the crack. It is definitely lighter than steel, but I have not detail stripped the gun to judge its weight more accurately.

I think the Olympic pistol was an all-steel Walther, not these Ermas. The Ermas are far too obscure for that, which is why I cannot find solid information on them.

DPris, I am very much afraid you are right that the gun cannot be restored to a safe shooting condition. That is one thing I hoped to get advice about here, so thank you for your help. In any event, I would like to repair the gun so it does not break into pieces just from handling.

JohnSKa, thanks for the link. I will pass it along to my friend who might be able to advise on TIG welding.
 
You need to figure out if it's aluminum or zinc based.

You can do that by weighing it and submerging in water for displacement for volume and comparing the results to online density charts.

There is a common chemical that can be put in it too. I think it reacts with aluminum but not zinc... or the other way around.

Google would helpful either method.
 
As far as I know, the Germans were doing more work with aluminum pistol frames than they were with zinc, although the later Gustloff 32 pistol apparently had a zinc frame.
Click to expand...

There's a wide, wide (wide) range of aluminum/zinc alloys. On the Al-heavy end, you have the vaunted 7075 allow, at the zinc-heavy end, the much-maligned Zamak. Lots in the middle, especially in the early experimental days when Erma was undoubtedly trying to market some new uber-metal.

One very good option if you wish to go the adhesive route, is "Lab Metal" by Alvin Products. It is an aluminum-bearing epoxy with a very high ratio of aluminum (it looks metallic when sanded), and is very, very tough stuff. It's also electrically conductive, so it can be powder coated.

Now, for a crack like in the pictures, I doubt an epoxy putty is going to be a good solution. Not only is the crack held closed making it difficult to get the goop where it needs to fill and stick things together, you are using it to bind a simple 'butt joint' with no overlap; literally the worst way to use an adhesive there is.

Coming from someone who has some experience with aerospace repairs, I would say your options are;
-bridge the joint with a repair splice if there is room (it appears the crack is through the trigger group area, so there may be some space around those parts for a thin sheet metal channel to lie across the gap and provide an overlap for the epoxy to shear into)
-Determine the frame material (carve a flake from a hidden area & have it shipped to a lab if you have to before heating anything). If it melts at a fairly low temperature, use a lead-based solder to repair the crack (preferably with the bridge plate mentioned earlier), if a higher-temp melting point use silver solder, if steel or sufficiently high-temp aluminum I would braze (preferably with bridge plate, again).
-If the frame material can be positively identified, and if it is amenable to welding, have a skilled welder TIG the crack closed (possibly but not necessarily with filler) on both the inside and outside faces. Good men can bind soda cans to eachother, so they can lay a tiny bead on your gun if it is possible. Most metallic materials can be TIGed (TIG can be used for brazing, too), but the trick is getting the many settings right, and finding a suitable filler material if it is needed. Welding could quickly ruin your gun beyond any repair but re-casting if done improperly.

The bridge plate is needed to keep this from happening again; if solder or braze are used, they are still in simple tension because of the butt joint, and will likely be weaker than the original material, which we know was already insufficient. With the bridge plate allowing the bonding material to shear vs. tension, it is likely stronger than the parent metal.

I would avoid welding if possible, though it would probably yield the best result of any technique unless the metal is really funky. It is simply much more dependent upon the exact makeup of the metal, and I doubt you'll be able to ascertain that ahead of time well enough to guarantee a good repair. You'd be risking weld cracks, heat affected zones, burn through, and even de-solution of the alloy agents if the wrong technique is used, and unfortunately you don't have an extra frame for your welder to practice on. The solder/braze methods would at worst burn off the paint or bluing applied to your piece (assuming you stay below the melting point), and finish damage is kind of a given for anything but epoxy which I doubt will hold up very well without a substantial reinforcement bridge. If you can't figure out what the melting point of the frame is, I think epoxy + bridge plate is the safest path forward (just make sure everything is very clean and bare, and contact an actual industrial adhesives company rep to get the right product of good quality; don't use a 5$ two-part resin from Home Depot on your 2500$ gun, and don't let a gunsmith do so either)

What is the normal going rate for functional versions of this pistol? If it's anywhere close to the 2250$ you paid, I'd be adamant about being made whole by the seller. You can see the crack in his ad, but the pistol is being advertised as functional which it is not; "great barrel" "ship to FFL" both suggest the gun for sale is in shootable condition. If you paid full price for a functional gun, the seller needs to compensate you or take the gun back in the unacceptable condition it was delivered. At THE LEAST he owes you that extra magazine, gratis.

If the guy insists on being a tool, leave him bad feed back, spread word of his treachery where ever he lurks online, and look into the above repair methods.
 
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