Replicating Loads

[D.B. Cooper]

This should be the culmination of all my 44 magnum discussions from the past year or so. I am trying to replicate a load someone else made fore me years ago. And I apologize, in advance, for the lengthy post.

I'm working with 312 grn hard cast lead WFN projectiles; these were made explicitly for moose hunting inside 100 yrds in heavy brush. 1.654" coal. The box is marked 22 grns H110. I pulled a few apart and weighed the powder: they came in around 19.8 grns, but it's very fine powder, and I doubt it all came out of the case and bullet puller. I chronographed 10 of these and came up with an average MV of 1539 fps. These shoot well in my 20" bbl Win 94 lever gun. Group size is around 4" for 5 rounds, although bullet drop at 100 yrds is significant. (18-24" even at 50 yrds, bullet drip is 8-10") By comparison, HSM Bear loads (305 grn WFN) shoot terribly (as do 240 and even 200 grn projectiles) due to the 1:38 twist and lack of rotational stability.

Looking at Lyman's 49th ed., there is no listing for 44 magnum rifle for 300+ grn projectiles, but the pistol data shows a 300 grn projectile maximum load of 18.5 grns. 22 grains seems excessive.

I loaded up a batch of similar ammo, starting at 18 grns through 19 grains at 0.2 grn increments. 18.4 grns (0.1 below maximum) 5-shot avg MV was 1368 fps. 19.0 grns (0.5 grns above maximum) 5-shot avg MV was 1411 fps. SO...22 grains of H110 to achieve 1500 fps doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility.

So here is where I'm at: the 18.4 grn load was pretty good. About 4-6" at 100 yrds with the same 18-24" drop. 6" is well within the size of a moose lung/heart vital zone. If I can compensate for the drop (I'm going to have to buy shim stock and shim the rear sight ramp.), then, as far as accuracy and bullet stability, I think I'm good to go. However, 18.4 grns is 171 fps slower than my current ammo. Even the 19 grn, over max load, at 1411 is 128 fps under. So now I'm at the point of trying to decide wether or not to load the 19 grn or keep pushing toward 22 grns trying to achieve 1500 fps (which, I'm told, will shoot a moose through and through at 100 yrds, which is the final end result I'm searching for.) or to just stop at the maximum 18.5 and accept that as the caliber's final limitation.

 

[AJC1]

I will not comment directly but what I would recommend is seeing if someone would run a quick load data set to see how much over pressure you are at 22 grains.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I will not comment directly but what I would recommend is seeing if someone would run a quick load data set to see how much over pressure you are at 22 grains.

Yeah I don't expect, or desire, someone to say "sure! load it till the case if full! It's safe." I guess, when I boil my post down to the essence, I'm wondering if 171 fps is significant enough, in terms of terminal performance, to warrant loading such a hot loaded cartridge to get that "just a bit more" out of the cartridge.

 

[MikeInOr]

I won't tell you that is an unsafe load BUT! ...I put it into my ballistics program and my computer blew up!







If 171fps is going to make the difference between a kill or not you probably need to look at a bigger cartridge (45-70?). Is 44 mag generally considered a solid cartridge for Moose up there in Alaska? If it is considered a good moose cartridge I would have to assume that would mean it is good with factory loads and pushing super hot loads would not be necessary. What do the locals say about 44 magnum on moose?

It has been a while since I looked but aren't there .44 magnum loads only for the 1894 Marlin and Ruger Hawks listed in the Lyman book (Maybe not four your 312gr bullet but in general)? If it were me I would stop at the top recommended load but I believe you are using it in one of the firearms that due to the strength of the action is capable of safely handling some really stout loads??? Personally I think bullet choice will make a bigger difference than the extra 171fps and I wouldn't push it that hot. I also believe that H110 is one of the more temperature sensitive powders so a load that is safe and shoots well in the middle of winter may change in the middle of summer and visa-versa.

Are you packing a 44 revolver too? Would that load be safe in your revolver?

 

[AJC1]

Some questions and I'm just thinking....

Is this the best rifle I have for what I'm doing? Well I have a 30/06 but I want to use this. Or this is my only rifle and I need meat.

The speed difference.... what am I most accurate and comfortable with. This bullet is not a hollow point or segmented so speed has little to do with terminal bullet performance. So that 171 fps is not important because I just need a through hole.
Have you shot game with your current load and it performed as expected.
So many factors in hunting that are important. I would feel comfortable loading a little over book max to be in a node for accuracy in a hunting rifle where very few rounds are used. I would not go 3.5 grains above max because a failure in the field far away from help is just not my idea of a good time. A 119% powder charge seems excessive and I would be hesitating at 19 and never going above 19.5. Every person must abscess the risk and there are reasonable stretches and 22 grains is not in my view reasonable.

 

[LiveLife]

44 magnum ... 312 grn hard cast lead WFN ... 1.654" coal ... H110

Lyman's 49th ... pistol data shows a 300 grn projectile maximum load of 18.5 grns. 22 grains seems excessive

You can always reference load data for bullet weight slightly heavier.

From Hodgdon load data (I am thinking BTB is Beartooth Bullets) - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

• .44 Mag 325 gr BTB Lead FN GC H110 COL 1.730" Start 20.0 gr (1,264 fps) 30,800 CUP - Max 22.0 gr (1,368 fps) 38,100 CUP

• .44 Mag 330 gr BTB Lead FN GC H110 COL 1.730" Start 19.0 gr (1,239 fps) 30,200 CUP - Max 20.8 gr (1,350 fps) 38,800 CUP

And Beartooth Bullets page - https://beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Is 44 mag generally considered a solid cartridge for Moose up there in Alaska? What do the locals say about 44 magnum on moose?

Most folks who want to hunt moose up here with a lever gun go with a Marlin Guide gun in 45-70. If you ask the "locals" what's best for moose, they will all say you need a 105mm howitzer. Seriously, so many people are obsessed with "bigger is better." 300 Win Mag is often said to be the minimum. 338 and 375 is preferred. I have no desire whatsoever to own any of those calibers.

Are you packing a 44 revolver too? Would that load be safe in your revolver?

I am, and that's a significant part of setting up a rifle to hunt with in 44 magnum. So far, my Redhawk handles it but it's a lot to handle.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Some questions and I'm just thinking....

Is this the best rifle I have for what I'm doing? Well I have a 30/06 but I want to use this. Or this is my only rifle and I need meat.


The speed difference.... what am I most accurate and comfortable with. This bullet is not a hollow point or segmented so speed has little to do with terminal bullet performance. So that 171 fps is not important because I just need a through hole.
Have you shot game with your current load and it performed as expected.
So many factors in hunting that are important. I would feel comfortable loading a little over book max to be in a node for accuracy in a hunting rifle where very few rounds are used. I would not go 3.5 grains above max because a failure in the field far away from help is just not my idea of a good time. A 119% powder charge seems excessive and I would be hesitating at 19 and never going above 19.5. Every person must abscess the risk and there are reasonable stretches and 22 grains is not in my view reasonable.

You raise some really good points I had overlooked. I have some other options, but none have any advantages over this option. I could just go out and buy another rifle. 171 fps sounds like a lot, but, as Paul Harrell would say: "Is it enough difference to make a difference? You be the judge." And that' pretty much where I'm at. And I agree, 22 grains (119% of max) seems unreasonable to me as well. I can make an accurate round with less powder/pressure/velocity.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

You can always reference load data for bullet weight slightly heavier.

From Hodgdon load data (I am thinking BTB is Beartooth Bullets) - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

• .44 Mag 325 gr BTB Lead FN GC H110 COL 1.730" Start 20.0 gr (1,264 fps) 30,800 CUP - Max 22.0 gr (1,368 fps) 38,100 CUP

• .44 Mag 330 gr BTB Lead FN GC H110 COL 1.730" Start 19.0 gr (1,239 fps) 30,200 CUP - Max 20.8 gr (1,350 fps) 38,800 CUP

And Beartooth Bullets page - https://beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

I appreciate you posting this. I may be handicapping myself relying on only one manual. I'm surprised to see such high numbers. This post makes my entire discussion somewhat moot if I can truly apply the 325 grn data to my 300 grn projectile, and yes, I'm using Bear Tooth projectiles.

However, hodgdon does list a 300 grn projectile in 44, but it's an xtp (copper jacket etc.) and it shows a min of 18 grns and a max of 19. SO does it really follow that one can apply heavier projectile data to lighter projectiles?

 

[Pat Riot]

I am not sure if this is pertinent but recently I was loading .357 Magnum cartridges and trying a new load with Universal powder. When I read the load data from Hodgkin the powder charge was lighter than charges listed in older reloading manuals. I thought that odd and that perhaps there was a misprint until I noticed at the top of the column the loads called for Magnum Primers.

Perhaps the person that developed your 22 grain load dropped the charge and used magnum primers?

Just a thought. I don’t load .44 Magnum cartridges so maybe they already utilize magnum primers but I thought I would mention it.

 

[brewer12345]

I appreciate you posting this. I may be handicapping myself relying on only one manual. I'm surprised to see such high numbers. This post makes my entire discussion somewhat moot if I can truly apply the 325 grn data to my 300 grn projectile, and yes, I'm using Bear Tooth projectiles.

However, hodgdon does list a 300 grn projectile in 44, but it's an xtp (copper jacket etc.) and it shows a min of 18 grns and a max of 19. SO does it really follow that one can apply heavier projectile data to lighter projectiles?

I think the data you looked at was for a jacketed bullet and the heavier data provided was for cast. Since cast has a lot less friction than gilding metal, you can generally get away with heavier powder loads with cast without going over pressure.

Is your accurate load enough mustard? I think so. Bear in mind that bison were hunted almost to extinction with black powder rifles shooting 58 caliber round balls. The balls weigh about 278 grains and your ballistics compare favorably to the black powder load data I have seen. As long as you have a good sized meplat and can put the bullets in the vitals I would not be shy about using the accuracy load.

 

[FROGO207]

I have personally seen two moose shot with a 30-30 and they were both DRT one shot kills. Around 50 YDS. As long as you can put the bullet where it needs to go that velocity difference is of little consequence. Keep it within kill distance and knowing where that bullet will hit and you will be able to do it. Distance and bullet drop will be your enemy.

 

[Frulk]

DB...Lee’s Second Edition of Modern Reloading shows the following load:

325 grain Lead

H110
Starting grain: 20
1264 FPS

max grain: 22
1336 FPS

In your Winchester I’m sure you’d pick up 150-200 FPS To get you where you want to be.

Considering you’re trying to get there with a 312 grain projectile it should be doable...using caution and all applicable safety considerations.

As a side bar: Lyman Cast Bullet Handloads 4th edition does show a 310 grain lead load for H110 maxing out at 19.5 grains and 1092 FPS out of a universal receiver with 4 inch barrel length and using magnum primer

 

[Telum Pisces]

Notes, notes, notes, notes, notes, notes.

Pictures of something that someone gave you. put that in your notes. Excel is great if you know how to use it. Otherwise oldschool notebook is great.

 

[LiveLife]

I am trying to replicate a load someone else made fore me years ago.

The box is marked 22 grns H110. I pulled a few apart and weighed the powder: they came in around 19.8 grns, but it's very fine powder, and I doubt it all came out of the case and bullet puller.

Large primers in the case can hold quite a bit of fine/small granule powder. Depending on powder density, it could be around 0.5 to 1.0 gr.

Your scale could be reading differently than that "someone else". (I won't go into shooting someone else's reloads).

And are you sure your scale is reading accurately? Has it been verified with check weights around 20 grains?


But it doesn't matter what may have been done by someone else before, what matters is what you are going to do. If you are concerned, chrono your loads as you conduct your powder work up while watching accuracy trends. Once you obtain the accuracy you desire with velocity you are happy with, you can stop without having to go all the way to 22 grains.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Notes, notes, notes, notes, notes, notes.

Pictures of something that someone gave you. put that in your notes. Excel is great if you know how to use it. Otherwise oldschool notebook is great.

Excel is great until you make one wrong click. Notes are great until you spill your coffee...
I agree. Keep notes. I suck at it.
Now I write in a notebook, in the box, and on the targets.
Then I lose my box of ammo in the abiss that is my ammo storage. It's a dresser, footlocker, and 3 30 gallon totes.

 

[Telum Pisces]

Excel is great until you make one wrong click. Notes are great until you spill your coffee...
I agree. Keep notes. I suck at it.
Now I write in a notebook, in the box, and on the targets.
Then I lose my box of ammo in the abiss that is my ammo storage. It's a dresser, footlocker, and 3 30 gallon totes.

I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing with you at myself! Did those and got the T-shirt for all the above.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Deleted.

 

[lordpaxman]

I appreciate you posting this. I may be handicapping myself relying on only one manual. I'm surprised to see such high numbers. This post makes my entire discussion somewhat moot if I can truly apply the 325 grn data to my 300 grn projectile, and yes, I'm using Bear Tooth projectiles.

I’m not loading these hot heavy loads but the discussion piqued my interest. I use a lot of Hodgdon data and often extrapolate from slightly heavier bullets, but couldn’t help but notice these numbers.
325gr start is 20gr, max is 22gr.
330gr start is 19gr, max is 20.8gr. With a higher max pressure.
They list the same bullet BTB Lead FN GC, and the bullet weight is less than 2% difference, but the charge weight is a full grain. I would have thought it would have been a much closer set of charge weights, but perhaps that’s part of the non-linear aspect of powder burns, or two different experiments at two different times to come up with these numbers. So do you rely on the 325 or the 330 max?
I second @LiveLife , get to where your accuracy is required, but less than these numbers. Good luck!