Rescue mission Colt - A Fuff gun?

[Hawk]

Made my monthly pilgrimmage to a LGS today and there, under the counter, was the oddest looking price tag I've ever seen:

500.00 Colt .41DA "As is" "Does not work"

I know a guy that can fix Colts I tell counter dude - what's up with this? Playing with it I note that it can be cocked and fired single action - well, sorta single action as the cylinder doesn't move - hand missing(?). No double action - hammer kind of rocks back and forth when the trigger is pulled.

No cylinder bind when open. In fact, I'd say it worked pretty smooth for something that didn't work (yeah, I know that doesn't make any sense but I got the impression it would be smooth if it had all its parts).

Really nice amount of finish remaining for something that looked pretty old. One grip panel was chipped on the bottom.

So, what could possibly make a dysfunctional revolver worth 500.00? It might be a wishful consignment (counter guy didn't know) but the dealer doesn't generally gouge - he had a really nice generic blue 6" Python for under 900.00 which is pretty good for the area.

In other words, the broken 41 was only 400.00 less than a 99% Python. I leave baffled. So, whether or not the Fuff wants to send me back to buy it, what is it? A perfunctory search says it fires .41 long Colt (?). Are they rare or something?

 

[Shade00]

Sounds like the .41 Thunderer, one of Colt's first double action revolvers. IMHO, not worth $500 unless in great shape; from what I recall, Colt's DA revolvers, the Lightning and the Thunderer, were very prone to mechanical problems. In fact, there's a DA .41 locally for about $150. It's in ok shape, but I really have no interest in it.

 

[Hawk]

Kind of hard for me to see the details in the pics but the Lightning and Thunderer appear to have SAA type ejectors and loading gates.

The .41 I saw looked semi-modern in that it had the modern Colt cylinder release / swing out cylinder.

Looked rather like this:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=101977237

Except the local one had a lot more of its bluing and didn't look anywhere near as "rough" as the one in the auction.

'Course it doesn't work - wasn't it Billy Crystal that said it's more important to look marvelous than to feel marvelous? It's that kind of handgun.

 

[Shade00]

For what it's worth, DA .41 production continued into the early 1900s, so it's possible they changed the cylinder latch and ejector shaft. I can't say for sure. I researched it a little bit a while back when I found the example locally. I wish I could be more specific, and certainly more helpful, but hopefully Fuff will jump in soon.

 

[Shade00]

Ok, looks like I need to correct myself. I had been wanting to get the Standard Catalog of Colt for sometime, so I just ran to Books-a-Million and picked it up. It looks like the gun could be one of the Colt models introduced after the Navy Model 1889, which was the first (I believe) to have the swing-out crane. These models, including several U.S. Army models, look a lot like the gun you linked to. To pin down what model it is exactly, I think we'd need to know the patent dates stamped on it and if there are any another stamps, i.e. "U.S. Army" or "U.S. Model 1892."

 

[Hawk]

Interesting - so this thing's design might date from 1889?

It looks like it could have been made in the 50s or 60s. The SAA 1873 only had 16 years in the sun before what looks like a modern revolver superceded it? 'Course this one would've turned wallflower in 1911. Stuff happened fast back then it would appear.

 

[Shade00]

Colt's first DAs, the Lightning and the Thunderer, were introduced in 1877. So I guess the SAA had less time to itself than that. If the revolver you looked at had the swing-out crane with an ejector shaft with DA .41 stamped on it, then it was likely produced after 1889 and before ~1905.

 

[Hawk]

It was my understanding that the 1877-78 double actions were not robust and didn't seriously threaten the SAA whereas the 41DA was actually adopted by the military.

Of course, my impression of the Lightning/Thunderer is based solely on internet chatter and a sparse wikipedia entry. Those are poor substitutes for facts. Were the earlier DA's actually stout?

 

[Old Fuff]

Colt's first .41 Hand Ejector was introduced in 1889, and can be quickly identified (even by Hawk ) because there aren't any bolt notches around the cylinder, as is the case today. In 1892 they improved it, and the model 1892 in various versions has two, not one row of cylinder notches, much like a Webley. In 1908 they introduced the Army Special, which looks like a Python with fixed sights and a round barrel. The internals are almost identical the snake-gun.

The models 1889 and also 1892 are stamped “D.A. 41” on the left side of the barrel. The Army Special is marked “Army Special.”

Making repairs depends on which model we're discussing, and the older it is, the more difficult to find parts.

That said, these revolvers are interesting – but not a big draw on the collector’s market, and aren’t considered shooters because of the expense and trouble in obtaining ammunition. Mint to like-new examples are usually priced in the $500 to $600 range. A well-worn, non-functional gun with chipped or cracked stocks shouldn’t draw over $200, if that.

The military services never bought a .41 caliber revolver. The Navy bought some Model 1889’s and both the Army and Navy bought a fair quantity of Model 1892’s, but they were all chambered in .38 Long Colt,

The earlier Models 1877 and 78 seemed to have been serviceable when they were made, but became cranky in their old age when they were worn out. They are a bear to work on, and few gunsmiths with any experience will take one on.


Colt’s earlier double action models – 1877 and 1878 – are similar to the Single Action Army in that have a solid frame, load through a gate, and have a rod ejector attached to the barrel. These, and only these, will draw big money even if they are non-functional but in decent shape.

 

[Jim Watson]

It would be a close contest but the Colt swing-out cylinder "left wheelers" with counter-clockwise rotation are some of the most complicated and fragile guns going; comparable to the Lightning and the S&W top-break small caliber DAs.

Fuff is right, a non-functional gun of that pattern would not be a bargain at half the price.

 

[Hawk]

Well, that saves me from going back to take pictures tomorrow. Had to make the offer though as I recalled my mentor didn't let a little lack of functionality deter him if all the other planets and stars were in alignment.

BTW, it had bolt notches.

Some things haven't changed yet, Fuff, when I saw that 899.00 Python my wallet snapped shut so fast and hard it was all I could do to pry it open at the S&W counter. It does that on its own.

 

[Jim K]

The description sounds like the civilian equivalent of the .38 military models of 1892-1903. Colt called the whole series the New Army Model and New Navy Model. The civilian models were not broken down, with a new model number assigned for minor upgrades. They were upgraded along with the military guns but were not given model numbers.

The use of the terms New Army Model and New Navy Model was advertising hype. There was no difference in the civilian guns except the grip insignia. The Navy model had the word "COLT" at the top of the grips; the Army model also had a rampant Colt. Both were available in .38 Colt (aka .38 Long Colt) and .41 Colt; later, the .32 WCF was added. They were made up to 1907 for a total of about 291,000.

The Army Special was a different gun, and a much improved design. The Army Special became the Official Police with no change but the name. It was available in .38 Special and .41 Colt.

Jim

P.S. Having worked quite a bit on both the 1877 and 1892 models I rate the former the most likely to have problems and the hardest to fix, but the 1892 comes close in both respects and is actually trickier in getting the timing right.

Parts are scarce or non-existent for both.

JK

 

[Old Fuff]

Somehow I can't get too excited, but I also can't offer much in the way of advise without positive identification. Maybe these link will help.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=102096849

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=101570525

 

[Old Fuff]

Had to make the offer though as I recalled my mentor didn't let a little lack of functionality deter him if all the other planets and stars were in alignment.

That’s true, but with some caution. A general overview of Colt’s double-action revolver history looks like this:

Model 1877: This was Colt’s first double-action revolver. It looked like a scaled down S.A.A. with a larger trigger guard and trigger, and unlike the famous thumb buster had a rounded bird’s head butt. These have a considerable collector’s value, but are often found to be totally or partially inoperable. Parts are difficult to find, and often expensive. The lock work is over complicated and difficult to fix. However considering the money that may be involved repairs may be justified where they might not otherwise be.

Model 1878: A larger version of the Model 1877, it was usually chambered in .44-40 or .45 Colt. It was surprisingly popular on the western frontier, and like the smaller version of 1877 is steadily increasing in value. But parts are even more difficult to find, and the lock work is no easier to work on.

Model 1889: Colt’s first hand ejector, and the first serious challenge to Smith & Wesson’s top-break system when it came to fast reloading. Some have a limited collector’s value, especially those purchased by the U.S. Navy. But again repairing one requires some expertise and most parts are next to impossible to find.

Model 1892: An improved version of the Model 1889. The same remarks that applied to the Model 1889 apply here. Because it was adopted by the all of the U.S. military services, and remained in production until 1908, parts are easier to find, but repairing one is sometimes not a piece of cake.

Various other models made between 1893 (.32 New Pocket Model) to the early New Service (1898) and including the New Police and early Police Positive. Parts are not the same as similar production made after 1908, and may be difficult (and expensive) to find. Most examples have limited collector interest, but there are exceptions. Repairs should be considered on a case-by-case basis.

Up to this point the revolvers are only interesting as collectables rather then shooters. Most of them were chambered for black powder cartridges such as .32 Long Colt, .38 Long Colt, and .41 Long Colt. Some later production will be found in .32 New Police (.32 S&W Long) and .38 New Police (.38 S&W). None of these find particular favor with today’s shooters.

In 1908 Colt started with a clean sheet of paper and introduced a number of models such as revised versions of the .32 Pocket Positive, Police Positive, Police Positive Special, Detective Special, Army Special/Official Police, and a revised New Service; all of which remained in production until 1942, and some that lasted into the early 1970’s. The last of the breed was the Python that held on for a bit longer. Some of these revolvers generate both collector and shooter interest, and while serviceable parts are not always easy to find, the situation is better then the pre-1908 production. There are also a few qualified gunsmiths left that will work on them that won’t touch the earlier guns.

There is also the matter of fixing a gun by making adjustments to the existing (original) parts, vs. replacing parts. You would be surprised at the number of misbehaving hand ejector Colt’s that don’t require new parts. As an example I submit an old Army Special that was badly out of time and the cylinder wouldn’t carry up (rotate) to where the bolt could lock it. It was generally viewed as a piece of hopeless junk. I fixed it by hitting it with a hammer.

O. K., not a hammer-hammer, but a plastic headed mallet. The problem was a bent crane, caused by owner abuse when someone flipped the cylinder in and out with a flip of the wrist – because that’s the way they did it in the movies. When the crane was straightened the timing and rotation was returned to perfect. All this took about 15 minutes and didn’t involve any expense. Oh, that all repairs would go that way.

On the other hand fixing a revolver that had suffered an owner-applied trigger pull job with lots of polishing in all of the wrong places required that most of the internals be replaced. The bill was considerable, and I don’t think that the person involved will do any more action work. As has been explained in the past, each revolver was expertly hand fitted, so parts that were in one gun can’t necessarily be switched to another. Since most of the currently available parts come from salvaged guns this is a point everyone should remember. New parts for pre-war guns are almost impossible to find, and when it comes to repairing older ones there is sometimes an important difference between new and used components.

With enough use, any revolver can be worn out, but the timing problems associated with these Colt revolvers seldom come from shooting alone. Simply shooting them won’t hurt things a bit. If that were the case they wouldn’t have lasted in production for as long as they did, nor would they have been used by so many military and law enforcement agencies all over the world. The prime cause of trouble is and was abusive handling by a user.

I am no longer involved in fixing Colt revolvers, other then a little work I do on my own guns, and that usually consists of “adjusting” rather then “replacing,” with the exception of minor stuff such as hands, screws, stocks, and so on.

But then once and awhile a nice old Colt comes to my door begging for help, and I don’t have the heart to turn the poor dear away…

 

[Hawk]

Thanks Fuff, that's a detailed and educational post.

 

[Old Fuff]

So now you know as much as I do...

I hope you haven't been driven over to the Smith & Wesson counter. That could get to be expensive.

Part of what I was trying to get across is there isn't any reason to not buy "problem Colt's" (or Smith & Wesson's for that matter) as long as you understand what you are getting, and the price is in line with that. The above mentioned Army Special (same as Official Police) cost me under $50.00. On another occasion I bought an early Official Police Mk III /38 Special/6" for under $150.00. The repairs consisted of removing the sideplate, extracting a spring that had been mis-assembled backwards, and putting everything back together. Took 30 minutes and no additional cost. When the previous owner discovered he'd done something wrong he paniced and tossed it onto an auction. Because "something was wrong with it," I was the only bidder.

Now frankly, fixing some of these guns required some experience and skill. But if you had gotten the O.P. Mk III and had a screwdriver you could have fixed it yourself. No special skill (beyond having a shop manual) is required.

 

[Hawk]

I may get there at some point but this was just me being "your eyes in Dallas".

I had actually gone there to check out some older Colt that was priced seemingly low, presumably due to a tag that was clearly labeled "R E F I N I S H E D" writ large. But, somebody else must not be troubled by "refinished" as it was gone when I got there.

 

[Old Fuff]

But, somebody else must not be troubled by "refinished" as it was gone when I got there.

Not to worry... there will be more. They're always some around.