Respect (or lack there of) for older Gun Writers

Browsing one of the other gun forums (the black rifle associated one), I noticed that once again folks were attacking Massad Ayoob. I just don't get the hate. I'm not 40 years old yet, but I read Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection when I was young, and it was insightful. I've spoken with Ayoob a few times and learned a lot from him. But those folks attacking him are doing so because he wasn't a GWOT Operator.

So what! Ayoob came about in an era before the internet. In fact, he came about in an era where pretty much the idea of teaching the general public anything self-defense related wasn't done. Heck Jeff Cooper only opened up Gunsite in 1976 and Ayoob released In the Gravest Extreme in 1980. Self-defense instruction was just starting and Ayoob was one of the early folks that got it off the ground. He tackled self-defense in a manner that previously, was never done. He gathered data on laws and situations from around the country and developed a training curriculum around that information. He also became an expert witness and helped a number of folks being railroaded not be railroaded.

Same goes for Jeff Cooper, Elmer Keith, Ken Hackathorn, "Skeeter" Skelton, and the rest of 'em. I see folks now bemoaning and admonishing them too, especially Jeff Cooper and his ideas on the scout rifle.

The folks that came from yesteryear are the ones who laid the foundations that today's GunTubers get to build careers on. They were the pioneers of and settled the frontier to make what today's industry is. Even folks knock Lenny Magill. Yet he took basic gun instruction and slapped it on a VHS tape and that truly spawned the GunTubers.

Are some of these folks past their prime? And are some of their earlier works outdated? Sure. But at the time, many of them weren't outdated and they worked with the knowledge and tools that they had available. But more importantly, they built entire industries that the shooting public enjoys today.

I haven't read through all the posts here yet.

What does being, or not being, a "GWOT Operator" have to do with anything about this?

As a retired Sailor, I can say that the rules of engagement differ in some very significant aspects between the military and civilian world when it comes to the use of deadly force.

And while a lot of training does cross over, a not insignificant bit does not. Not even between military and civilian law enforcement.

I have my own biases on such matters (everybody does). But when someone else's biases cross over into the absurd (or just plain stupid) and it's evident it's not a conversationally resolvable one, I give it the ole mental eye roll and move on.
 
I haven't read through all the posts here yet.

What does being, or not being, a "GWOT Operator" have to do with anything about this?

As a retired Sailor, I can say that the rules of engagement differ in some very significant aspects between the military and civilian world when it comes to the use of deadly force.

And while a lot of training does cross over, a not insignificant bit does not. Not even between military and civilian law enforcement.

I have my own biases on such matters (everybody does). But when someone else's biases cross over into the absurd (or just plain stupid) and it's evident it's not a conversationally resolvable one, I give it the ole mental eye roll and move on.
The uneducated think Massad Ayoob doesn't have any value because he wasn't room clearing out compounds in Iraq.
 
I used to work with an individual who went to a very prestigious university in upstate New York. He was all about this "operator"who was showing the "start of World War 3" due to US military troop movements. All of the information I saw in the videos this guy shared were standard troop movements for a group the size of the military. My coworker also thought that "tacticool" training was legitimate for normal people to take for EDC because the "operator" said so. I took his advice with a 5 pound bag of salt due to my personal experience and training from people who have "been there and done that" in the civilian world. One of them was a former boss who was involved in several gun play events during his time in Law Enforcement.

Learn only from those who have lessons worth learning, and just because somebody says the right words doesn't mean he is smart. Mr. Ayoob has a stellar reputation that he can stand proud of vs. the random "internet operator" on YouTube. Opinions are like bodily orifices, everyone has one and most of them stink.
 
I met Elmer Keith twice at NRA Annual Meetings. I had "Hell I Was There" , another of his books and he autographed an article in a magazine he had written. Lost all of them in a house fire. My favorite writer now is Craig Boddington. They both write in plain language with a sense of honesty.

NRA Benefactor
I never really cared for Craig Boddington, until I met the guy. I 'had' a friend in the NRA and we got invited to dinner with Craig and his wife one night at the annual meetings, I think in Atlanta. Great folks with fascinating stories.
 
I'm 23 and I feel that while Massad Ayoob has some dated opinions and teachings, he still has quite some useful information to share.

I don't like his opinion on dropping the slide on an empty chamber. I also don't like his opinion on downgrading to a different firearm because "the jury will be more likely to convict someone using an AR-15!" I do think some of his seminars from LFI and his self-defense books are chock-full of good info.

Ken Hackathorn is the one I really don't like. His being against red dot sights and weapon-mounted lights just really doesn't sit well with me. I just find him to be stuck in the 1990s. Some of the logic he uses is very similar to the logic that anti-gunners use.

ETA that I don't get the "Massad Ayoob has no experience! He's just some auxiliary cop in rural New Hampshire that does it for the creds!" I don't see a point there when a lot of what he teaches on self-defense law is backed-up by "experienced professionals."
He's right about the dropping the hammer on a empty chamber when it is a $5k bespoken 1911. My beater Colt 1991A1 Series 80 that I paid $250 for.... that's sometimes used to level out the dining room table and as a chew toy for the dog. ;)

As for using an AR-15 for self-defense and the jury thing. He's talking in a generalized manner and he's not wrong. It all depends on the trial venue. If it was in my area, using an AR wouldn't bat an eye nor would I be tried if it was the self-defense in my own home. I live in a fairly pro-gun county with fairly strong state self-defense laws, including castle doctrine and stand your ground. Plus, it is a single-family residence with concrete block construction for my exterior walls.

Now, if I lived in the Bronx in an apartment. Things are different there and I would choose a different firearm. Each legal jurisdiction has its own quirks and oddities. He's trying to create a generalized educational product that works with the averages of our society. Plus, his experience in seeing how prosecutors and juries actually work in the real world too. Which, form my own personal experience as a cop, seeing it first hand. The courts do not operate on logic alone. Emotion is a huge tool used to pull at the heart strings of the jurors.

A well versed and experienced prosecutor very much will try to paint the plaintiff as a blood-thirsty killer who used excessive force. Heck, the upcoming FL Senate Minority Leader, Sen. Jason Pizzo is a former Broward County State Attorney. Broward County is where Parkland happened. And he's the ranking Democrat in the Florida Senate.

Last year, during debate for permitless concealed-only carry. He directly asked me if using an automatic weapon to defend my family was excessive. I told him no, I said bad guys travel in packs. That as a cop, I carried such firearms for the specific reasoning that superior firepower balances a lone party facing a larger superior force. He went quiet. But in Broward County, FL; just a question like that is common and it is used in the courts by prosecutors to paint the plaintiffs as being excessive. And the local pool that a jury is pulled from thinks the same way since they elect people like Sen. Pizzo into office.

As for Ken Hackathorn, he's stuck in the olden ways and is kind of a curmudgeon. It is what it is. When I reach his age, I'll probably say something to the effect of using hand-free drones armed with phasers and FLIR is worthless and only a tricked out GLOCK 17 with a RDS and a WML is the way to go. And all the kids will laugh at me and tell me to go back into my retirement pod and watch reruns of Miami Vice.
 
Are you aware that scientific jury simulation studies support that opinion?
You just said it yourself, "simulation." I'm not going to base my choices in weaponry on some simulation of a jury.

Sure, in some places, your choice in weaponry may have some sort of effect on a jury, but I live in Ohio, where we have extremely-strong self-defense laws and most people have some sense to them.
 
It's the best you can do.
I believe that the best I can do is picking the right tool for the job and making the best decision in the moment.

I don't doubt that some of the finer details will be in the mind of a few jurors, but the way I see it, if I get convicted of a crime after shooting someone in self-defense, it's because there were bigger issues at play than my choice of weapon.
 
but the way I see it, if I get convicted of a crime after shooting someone in self-defense, it's because there were bigger issues at play than my choice of weapon.
But all things being equal, it can make a deiffeerence.

The methods for the analysis are the way they predict what is likely to happen to you,. Read the paper Will It Hurt Me in Court.

Mas has witnessed a sufficient number of trials to know what he is talking about.
 
I believe that the best I can do is picking the right tool for the job and making the best decision in the moment.

I don't doubt that some of the finer details will be in the mind of a few jurors, but the way I see it, if I get convicted of a crime after shooting someone in self-defense, it's because there were bigger issues at play than my choice of weapon.
Have you ever seen voir dire happen? The goal of the prosecutor is to select the dumbest people possible for the jury. People that are malleable and easy swayed.
 
Unless it's an exceptionally clear-cut case, if you're involved in a self-defense shooting you are almost certain to go to court.

And even if it IS a clear-cut case, you may STILL end up going to court.

And when you go to court, the prosecution WILL use every tactic at hand to sway the jury toward a conviction.


If you used hollowpoint ammunition, the horrors of exploding, slicing-dicing, buzzsaw ammunition will be expounded upon.

If you used FMJ ammunition, the horrors of overpenetrating, armor-piercing ammunition will be expounded upon.

If you used a Wilson Combat pistol, you can be sure that the very name of the pistol will be used to point out that it's specifically built for the evils of combat and not self-defense.

If you used an inexpensive handgun, you probably had a "Saturday Night Special".

Small caliber, large caliber, big gun, little gun, optics, no optics, whatever...there's an angle that the prosecution COULD take with each and every one of these things to use in swaying a jury.


Personally, the only thing I'm against is overtly stupid stuff, like laser engraving stupid phrases that clearly allude to threatening intent.
 
I never cared for Boddington for a long time. He seemed rather arrogant but he has mellowed some and I actually enjoy the few articles I read from him now.

I see some of dislike and belittlement of older folk on some forums. Just remember, they were on the cutting edge of development when young and their work helped the young be where they are today. Also remember that if the stars align right you will be old----sooner than you think.
 
Browsing one of the other gun forums (the black rifle associated one), I noticed that once again folks were attacking Massad Ayoob. I just don't get the hate. I'm not 40 years old yet, but I read Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection when I was young, and it was insightful. I've spoken with Ayoob a few times and learned a lot from him. But those folks attacking him are doing so because he wasn't a GWOT Operator.

So what! Ayoob came about in an era before the internet. In fact, he came about in an era where pretty much the idea of teaching the general public anything self-defense related wasn't done. Heck Jeff Cooper only opened up Gunsite in 1976 and Ayoob released In the Gravest Extreme in 1980. Self-defense instruction was just starting and Ayoob was one of the early folks that got it off the ground. He tackled self-defense in a manner that previously, was never done. He gathered data on laws and situations from around the country and developed a training curriculum around that information. He also became an expert witness and helped a number of folks being railroaded not be railroaded.

Same goes for Jeff Cooper, Elmer Keith, Ken Hackathorn, "Skeeter" Skelton, and the rest of 'em. I see folks now bemoaning and admonishing them too, especially Jeff Cooper and his ideas on the scout rifle.

The folks that came from yesteryear are the ones who laid the foundations that today's GunTubers get to build careers on. They were the pioneers of and settled the frontier to make what today's industry is. Even folks knock Lenny Magill. Yet he took basic gun instruction and slapped it on a VHS tape and that truly spawned the GunTubers.

Are some of these folks past their prime? And are some of their earlier works outdated? Sure. But at the time, many of them weren't outdated and they worked with the knowledge and tools that they had available. But more importantly, they built entire industries that the shooting public enjoys today.

Have to remember who their audience was too. Cooper had some opinions and a unique way of expressing them. But they were meant for a specific audience. The language is different today, the values have changed, the "climate" surrounding guns has changed. Those were folks (both writers and audience) who lived through times and events that folks today have not. This cycle will repeat itself again in 50 yrs, with the YouTube stars complaining about ______.

Yesterday was different than today and it will be different tomorrow too. ☕
 
Without perusing the entire thread, one thing that I have noticed about a lot of "mature" gun writers, is they seem to get stuck in an era or a mindset that they have become very familiar with and then tend to stagnate, to the point that much of their writing is outdated and has been superseded. I don't see many of the older, established gun writers doing much to keep up with the times, mostly its just waxing nostalgia and wistfully comparing new trends with "the good old days".
Jerry Miculek being one of the exceptions, as he has kept up, become familiar with, practiced with, and uses the newest tech he can get his hands on. He's a competitor though, and has to...writing is secondary, although I'm sure will become more prevalent as he ages.
 
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