Restaurant Concealed Carry in Florida

[AWorthyOpponent]

So, I have a question. Is restaurant carry legal in Florida? Boredom searching the web and reading the gun laws leads me to believe that you can’t carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol. However, after speaking with an officer that is a friend, he says you can. HandgunLaw.us also says you can.

http://handgunlaw.us/states/florida.pdf

When I read the statute though, it seems to me like you cannot.

(12) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05; any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom; any polling place; any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any school administration building; any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any career center; any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile; inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. Any person who willfully violates any provision of this subsection commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...y_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/Sec06.HTM

Am I sadly mistaken?
Can someone lead me in the right direction?

I have a CCW, and want to follow the law, but don't know it well enough apparently...

:banghead:

 

[WingRider]

Sure

What it means IMO (I am not a lawyer, this just an opinion), is that you may carry in the restaurant, BUT not sit at the bar while carrying. Check out floridafirearmslaw.com. I've read this guys book several times. Good info. He's a RKBA lawyer in O'town.

 

[Prince Yamato]

It means don't go to a bar or if the place is a "Bar and Grill" and has a separate "Bar" area from the rest of the place, don't spend your time "at the bar". Basically, your main purpose has to be eating food, not drinking.

 

[AWorthyOpponent]

what about a place like Applebees Neighborhood Grille and Bar. They have a row of high tops around the bar. Would that be considered part of that portion of the establishment?

I see what the two of you mean, but do you know of any case law that supports Restaurant CCW? I believe I will carry if sitting at a table from now on, but I am just curious. It is better to know exactly what you're talking about if the need arises.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Here's the other thing too: you have a copy of the letter of the law and you are interpreting it to the best of your ability.

It says: any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose

Which you interpreted to mean, "not a bar or at a bar in a restaurant". You can either follow advice from people on the internet or call up a Florida LEO and ask. In fact, call up two. Call in a more rural county, not Miami PD or anything like that and ask. You can't be arrested for asking what the law is.

If you are still uneasy do as I do.

In Texas, I carry the CCW rulebook in my car and have highlighted gray areas in case I am ever hassled. Carry the print-out from the state website in your car, highlight the problem areas. If you are questioned by an officer, show them the part you have highlighted and say, "it says according to state law..."

 

[AWorthyOpponent]

In Texas, I carry the CCW rulebook in my car and have highlighted gray areas in case I am ever hassled. Carry the print-out from the state website in your car, highlight the problem areas. If you are questioned by an officer, show them the part you have highlighted and say, "it says according to state law..."

Funnily enough, I do this as well already.

You can either follow advice from people on the internet or call up a Florida LEO and ask. In fact, call up two. Call in a more rural county, not Miami PD or anything like that and ask. You can't be arrested for asking what the law is.

That's a good idea. In fact, I may go a step further and contact FDLE (Florida Dept of Law Enforcement) via email. This way I have it in writing as well.

 

[kanook]

you would be better to contact a lawyer instead of law enforcement. If you get it in writing and the answer is wrong, all that means is you have a piece of paper with the signature of some leo that doesn't know the law either.

 

[SFilpansick]

Not that I can help with Florida (although the wording you highlighted leads me to believe it's the same), but in MI, I can carry in to a restaurant that serves alcohol, as long as food service is their primary business.

 

[lead-inspector]

It is Legal

You may carry in a Florida restaurant. An example would be a steak house like Outback. Sitting at a table or booth is OK just stay away from the separate bar area.

Steve

 

[OurSafeHome.net]

You may carry in a Florida restaurant. An example would be a steak house like Outback. Sitting at a table or booth is OK just stay away from the separate bar area.

We dine at the Outback Steakhouse here in Florida. When we are asked if we would like to "sit at the bar", we say no.

 

[divemedic]

1 Asking a LEO is foolish He or she likely knows less about this particular law than you do. A LEO is not an attorney.

2 I called the state and asked this very question a few years ago, and was told the intent of the law is to keep you out of a bar with a concealed weapon (for example:the bar located in a shopping mall, theme park, or bowling alley). They told me that you aren't going to jail for carrying in the Outback.

3 How do I know if a portion of a restaurant is devoted PRIMARILY to the sale of alcohol? For example, the Orlando Ale House chain is a popular lunch spot, and sells far more food than booze. Is it primarily devoted to the sale of alcohol? What about the Outback chain?

This is something that I have long admired Texas for- the 51% sign, although even their system is flawed, as many establishments who do NOT get 51% of their sales from alcohol display the sign.

We dine at the Outback Steakhouse here in Florida. When we are asked if we would like to "sit at the bar", we say no.

Even then, a look at the "bar" area of the Outback shows that far more people are dining than drinking. So, again- is that portion of the establishment PRIMARILY for selling alcohol?

 

[Sam1911]

This is something that I have long admired Texas for- the 51% sign, although even their system is flawed, as many establishments who do NOT get 51% of their sales from alcohol display the sign.

This is an area I've long admired Pennsylvania for -- no bar restrictions at all. In fact, drinking while carrying is not illegal as long as you are not intoxicated.

Oddly, there's no "blood in the streets" over this. Us "carrying" types just seem to be able to behave themselves -- even after a beer.

Anyway, back to FL...

The grey area inherant in this definition of which area of an establishment is devoted to the sale of alcohol presents a huge risk for CCW-ers. Too much latitude for selective or over-zealous enforcement of that statute. If the restaurant has only one large room and one guy is sitting 3' from the bar and the other guy is 25' away on the other side of the room ... who's breaking the law? Either could/would be served alcohol if they requested it. What possible increased risk does that 22' extra feet of proximity entail? (I suppose a really LAZY VCA might not be willing to take the seven paces required to cross the room and assault someone...?) An assinie law.

Funny (sad) how many of these little traps and archaic rules still exist in so many "gun friendly" states (FL, of course, but TX, NC, and some others are not where they should be, either.)

-Sam

 

[SFilpansick]

Another factor to consider is this: If you are carrying in an establishment and you are unsure of the legality, who is going to know? How would anyone find out?
If some a-hole comes in and starts shooting the place up and you have to stop him, do you think you'll be charged for carrying in a "gray area"?

 

[Sam1911]

Another factor to consider is this: If you are carrying in an establishment and you are unsure of the legality, who is going to know? How would anyone find out?

Seriously? You're kidding, right? Shirt tail rides up, cover garment stretches a little too tight and "prints", someone brushes against you and realizes what that lump is, and so on. Heck, some folks have even managed to have a gun slip out of a holster and hit the floor. Rare, but it happens.

Most people are oblivious, sure. But not everyone. And quite possibly not the off-duty cop at the next table who maybe thinks it's his duty to enforce this law. Many cops wouldn't, some would. If it's a grey area, you'll have to trust than his view of the matter aligns with yours. If not, you may still eventually avoid the rap, but you'll spend some time and money doing so.

If some a-hole comes in and starts shooting the place up and you have to stop him, do you think you'll be charged for carrying in a "gray area"?

Unfortunately, yes, you might be. We'd all hope not, and maybe it's especially unlikely in the "Gunshine State," but stranger things have definitely happened. I'd personally still rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 ... but I'd rather have the law on my side!

-Sam

 

[AWorthyOpponent]

Another factor to consider is this: If you are carrying in an establishment and you are unsure of the legality, who is going to know? How would anyone find out?
If some a-hole comes in and starts shooting the place up and you have to stop him, do you think you'll be charged for carrying in a "gray area"?

I've alway been a believer that if you are concealing a weapon, noone should he able to tell you have it. However, I cannot say that I have never stretched and had my shirt ride up, or that I've never had someone bump into me in a high traffic area and notice that that was something more than a cell phone.

Here in Florida, I don't think I'd be charged criminally if that happened, but what if it was a toy made to look real? What if there was some other extenuating circumstance? I'm sure a family could sue civilly saying that if I had been following the law, I wouldn't have been able to react in the manner that I did. Granted, I hope it never does happen, but there's always that what if...

Posted via iPhone 3GS 4:44pm

 

[MedWheeler]

Laws have some gaps..

... but common sense can fill most of them in.
Put your elbows on the surface in front of you, where your drink is. If they're on a table, you're good to go. If they're on a bar (defined for this discussion as a countertop at which people, not necessarily from the same party, sit to consume drinks, though they may also consume food), you are in violation.
The above assumes you are in a "restaurant", which is a food-serving business that has food sales make up more than ten percent of its total consumables sales.
An exception exists in places that have more than one section, with one being primarily for alcohol consumption. These sections could be separated by walls, dividers, or changes in floor elevation, and food service would be limited or unavailable in the one used for alcohol consumption (a clue would be the lack of a food server.)
Once the kitchen closes, the "gray" kicks in. I would consider the entire establishment a "bar" at that point if I was just walking in.
The law does not address consuming alcohol while in a restaurant. Feel free to order a beer with that steak.
Oh, and get your elbows off the table before Mom catches you..!

 

[divemedic]

MedWheeler-
Your definition of what constitutes the bar area of a restaurant is just that- your opinion. Since there is no definition in the statute, and there has been no case law to decide what that means, this is a big grey area, and a real problem for gun owners.

In the Outback chain, and in other chains like Chili's, there are two areas of the restaurant: in one area, you are seated by the hostess, and the wait for a table can be over an hour on a busy night. In the other area, seating is on a 'grab a table as you can' basis, and the wait is much shorter. The problem is, while this area contains 15-20 tables, it also contains a bar. When I sit at one of those tables, am I sitting in an area PRIMARILY devoted to the sale of alcoholic beverages? There is no legal answer to that, and until there is a case, we will not know the answer.

Until that time, opinions are just that- opinions.

The law does not address consuming alcohol while in a restaurant. Feel free to order a beer with that steak.

You need to check that again. Read 790.157 here:

(1) It is unlawful and punishable as provided in s. 790.151 for any person who is under the influence of alcoholic beverages or controlled substances, when affected to the extent that his or her normal faculties are impaired, to use a firearm in this state.

The law goes on to say that .05 is the limit. How much alcohol do you think it takes to hit .05? A person who weighs 160 pounds could hit that with one 16 ounce beer.

 

[AWorthyOpponent]

There is no legal answer to that, and until there is a case, we will not know the answer.

Is there really no case law that defines that line? I know Florida is extremely pro gun but one would thinkthat there has been a couple of cases that have defined that line...at least a little...

 

[divemedic]

Not one case that I could find, nor have I met anyone who has read such a case. The would seem to support the opinion that the AG is not pursuing charges against anyone for carrying in a restaurant that has a bar area.

 

[Japle]

As I understand it, you can carry in the bar section if you're sitting at a booth or table and eating a meal, even if you have a beer with the meal.
If you sit at the bar and eat the same meal, even without a beer, it's a violation.

Makes about as much sense as most laws.

 

[divemedic]

As I understand it, you can carry in the bar section if you're sitting at a booth or table and eating a meal, even if you have a beer with the meal.
If you sit at the bar and eat the same meal, even without a beer, it's a violation.

1 You cannot drink if you are carrying. See 790.157.

2 There is no case law or statutory authority to support that opinion. That may or may not be the case. It all boils down to what the PRIMARY function of that portion of the restaurant is.

 

[MedWheeler]

DiveMedic, read the statute again. As you quoted it, it reads one cannot "use" a firearm when consuming alcohol to the extent of being "impaired". That law is aimed at drunken folks who shoot up road signs and the like. It does not address whether carrying a firearm concealed constitutes "using" it. Just because I am carrying a cellphone does not mean that I am using it.
Nothing in the law downright prohibits consuming any amount of alcohol while carrying a concealed firearm in accordance with CCW/CCF laws.
As you stated, opinions are nothing more... well, you get it.
(also, I never denied the existence of "gray areas" in the law; my post title acknowledged that.)

 

[numaone]

A story I heard, I can't verify the veracity of it at all, but I thought I'd share it.

Guy sitting in a neighborhood restaurant in Florida. He is drinking while eating a meal and is being obnoxious. Someone sees he is carrying and call the police. When the police arrive, they observe the man for a while but do nothing. As soon he walks to the bathroom through the bar area (the bathrooms always seem to be close to the bar), they nab him.

Once again, just a story I heard. I avoid drinking whenever carrying, and drawing any undue attention to myself. Hell, I avoid drinking 100% of the time, but that's just me.

 

[Tacbandit]

Quote:
"This is an area I've long admired Pennsylvania for -- no bar restrictions at all. In fact, drinking while carrying is not illegal as long as you are not intoxicated."


If you're drinking alcohol, to some degree...you're intoxicated...to what degree, is the question. The real question is, are you impaired?

 

[sohcgt2]

If they sell alcohol for consumtion on the property leave the gun behind.