Restoration of old revolver - methods of the Pros

[Svet]

Hi guys,
I am trying to restore a revolver that was heavily rusted.
I scraped off the rust with a soft rotary brush and now the surface is rust free but there are thousands of rust pits all over it.

Here is a photo of the surface. Some of the pits are qute deep and wide in diameter.

And the revolver - you can clearly see the deep pitting.

I want to make this revolver look like new.
I want to restore it.
Do you know a remedy for this problem? Apparently, the pits must be filled with something and after that everything must be sanded smooth.

I know that some people use MIG welders to fill the pits but in my case that would be impossible because of the small size of the project and the details - there are several fine grooves and ridges that would be destroyed if a welder is used. Also the stamps and serial numbers would be lost forever.

Some restorers sand the whole surface down so to take the pits out, others simply mat the surface through sand blasting so the pits become less visible...
I think that these two methods are extremely lame and that they compromise the original shape and look of the gun. They sound like extra-ruining the piece to me.
Plus they do not offer a real solution to deep pitting.

I thought of using automotive putty to fill the pits but the revolver has to be finished by blueing, so it won't work too...
Is there somekind of a metal putty that can be blued?

I think that the best method would be using a soldering iron and tin solder for filling the rust pits.
The problem is that I don't know how to blacken the tin so to make it the same color with blued steel. I guess it will react in a different way to blueing solutions and the final result would be a spotted revolver.
Or am I wrong? (I hope I am)

A guy on a forum suggested that I use "Gun Kote" - it is a ceramic paint that emulates gun bluing and has great protective qualities. Problem is that it is impossible to find the thing in East Europe and no online store ships it internationally because of a forbidden sunstance that is contained in it.

So, Gun Kote is not an option for me. How to finish a revolver that has its rust pits filled with tin solder?

Is there any common paint that can emulate the look and color of real gun bluing that would do the job?

Have you ever restored rust-pitted blades, guns or other metal objects? If yes, how?

THANKS!

 

[XavierBreath]

Svet,
Anything you filled the pits with would have a different composition than the gun metal, and would blue differently. The result would be an awful, splotchy finish. Gun Kote is a teflon finish that would be horribly inappropriate for this pistol, kind of like putting Chanel on an Egyptian mummy. Unfortunately, in this case, it might be less expensive to simply find a gun in better shape.

Removing the years of rust did not enhance the value of this gun, but neither will "restoring" it or rebluing it. Old guns often have a patina that only time can give. Removing that patina to the bare metal is the quickest way to remove any value the firearm had. I own several guns that I purchased covered in a nice rust brown patina. I shoot them that way, and show them off that way. I would never strip off that patina and try to refinish them. The patina, eventhough it is a worn and weathered finish, is the original finish. That can never be replaced. Tip from the pros----Chose the guns you strip to be refinished very carefully.



I believe what I would do with your pistol is remove the grips, degrease it, and place it out in the weather for six months so it could get a nice rust patina again. Then I would oil it down and reinstall the grips. Even then, the patina you can get will never be as nice as the patina this gun once had, but you can try. Sometimes it's better to preserve than restore, and this is one that should have been preserved.

 

[Svet]

Thanks, Xavier.
The revovler was found in an old basements, most of its surface covered in 2 mm of hardcore red rust (not patina). Some of the rust pits you see on the pic are almost 2 mm deep. Its original blueing and patina are long gone.

The subject of this topic is not this revolver itself. I don't value it and I don't really think of it as of a historic relic or something.
I just have this (destructive?) project and I want to restore the thing, turn it into a wallhanger and give it a fresh look.

Once again: please, do not turn this topic into a pro- and anti- restoration thread.
If you guys can suggest a way to fill the rust pits and re-blue the gun, I'd be very grateful.
Thanks!

 

[XavierBreath]

Not at all Svet! It's your gun, and not a historical relic. You got it free, so you have no investment. I'm just tossing that out there for consideration...... An alternative finish appropriate for the gun.

Truely, and with no distain, I suggest that the best thing to try to do with it is not attempt to restore it to what it no longer is or can be, but allow it to be what it has become, an old gun. Degrease it, and let it form a layer of brown rust. Then arrest the process of oxidation with oil. Old surfaces have a wonderful history that new ones do not. This is an old gun with a history, let it's finish reflect that. Attempts to make it look new again, even if done well, would appear horribly artificial.

If you are not going to shoot it, and are just making a wall hanger, you might try automotive body filler and paint. I think your revolver would seem artificial looking like a new gun though. When I see 150 year old guns that are pristine in an original finish I am always skeptical!

 

[dfaugh]

Well, the only REAL way to fill the pits is gonna be by MIG/TIG welding, then grinding/sanding/polishing smooth(serious $$$$$$$$)...And its doubtful that you'll get even bluing, as the weld alloy is gonna be different than the base metal.

If you want a professional opinion, contact Doug Turnbull Restorations. He's right down the road from me and I've seen his work, and its nothng short of miraculous. I've also seen his prices for extensive restorations, and I'm guessing several thousand dollars, if he would take it on at all. I'm pretty sure he'd tell you to forget about it.

 

[Svet]

If you are not going to shoot it, and just make a wall hanger, you might try automotive body filler and paint. I just think it would seem artificial looking like a new gun. When I see 150 year old guns that are pristine in an original finish I am always skeptical!

Thanks, what kind of a paint would be best for the job? Are there any common paints that are durable, scratch resistent and emulate gun bluing?
As mentioned, Gun Kote is not easy to be found here.
I want the revolver to look like new - that's the final goal.
Sceptical people are not a problem - I am not going to pretend that it was 100% preserved. Just hang it on my wall and show off.
Still, an authentic looking bluing finish is prefered to automotive spray cans look.

 

[Svet]

Well, the only REAL way to fill the pits is gonna be by MIG/TIG welding

Nah, as I mentioned in my first post, that's impossible in this case.
Professional restorers are not an option too - my idea is to do it completely on myself and gain some experience in the field of gun restoration.

 

[XavierBreath]

If you are going to paint it, I would suggest just seeing what is available in your local hobby store. I do not paint guns, and even if I knew a product to suggest, chances are it would not be available to you.

my idea is to do it completely on myself and gain some experience in the field of gun restoration

Yep. I understand that. I submit that you are getting experience right now. Lesson one is do nothing. Research. Do nothing again. Research and ask questions. Then, after careful consideration of what you might destroy, and weighing the benefits vs the detriments, proceed with caution.

If your gun had been covered with 2mm of orange oxidation, working it down with a leather strap instead of a wire wheel would have been preferable. Once the finish was even, with the rust still in the pits, it could have been oiled or hot dipped. Once those pits are empty though, it's tough to get an even surface again. This is a gun that even Doug Turnbull would likely turn away, but maybe not... I doubt he will let lose his secrets though!

From Turnbull's website:

The thought of restoring old guns to original condition has long been considered unacceptable. It was believed that tampering with an original gun would detract from its value, even if time and heavy use had taken its toll. No one could possibly duplicate the original finishes let alone the quality and craftsmanship of the original guns, or maybe people consider it a sign of disrespect to disturb the work of the original craftsmen.

Turnbull Restoration is committed to honoring the original gun makers by returning these guns to their original beauty. Restoration of firearms involves a great deal of knowledge, skill, patience and a keen eye for detail. When done correctly, restoration can provide a look into the past as well as preserving an important piece of history.

When someone asks if restoration will affect the value of the firearm, remind them that The Statue of Liberty, The Washington Monument, The Star Spangled Banner and The Charter of Freedom (Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence) have all undergone restoration efforts. Does restoring these symbols of American history diminish their significance?

We hope the original gun makers would be proud to see these guns being preserved for future generations. The craftsmen at Turnbull Restoration are dedicated to continuing the great gun making tradition in this country.

Oh, and I forgot...... Welcome to the forum Svet! I hope you find it entertaining and enriching!

 

[Jim Watson]

Lauer makes a product called Durafil for the purpose of filling pits and scars on guns. Apply, cure, sand level and finish. Like auto body filler on a smaller scale. They also sell Duracoat spray finishes in a variety of colors, including "black oxide", "gloss black", and "gun blue." One of them, carefully applied would probably look pretty much like real bluing on an old gun in a picture frame mount.
I don't know if Lauer exports their products, but it cannot hurt to ask.
http://www.lauerweaponry.com/index.cfm

I guess you could fill the pits and scars with solder or pewter, file smooth, and have the whole mess nickel plated.

 

[Svet]

Thanks guys, your advices are helping me a lot.
The DuraCoat dudes do not ship outside of the USA. Couldn't find another online store that sells it.
DuraFil seems to be somekind of a putty. I guess I'll go for the automotive stuff after all.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think I'd use some sort of epoxy, the car body fillers look kind of coarse for the (relatively) small pits and dents in a beat up pistol. Fill, cure, level, and coat with whatever finish you can find most similar to gun blue. There has got to be some sort of semigloss black finish available to you.

 

[Rex B]

putty

If you must go with the automotive stuff, be sure you get a spot putty that will adhere to bare metal. Some fillers are made for panel work and are to large-grained for your need. Look for somehing made to fill pinholes, and be sure it will adhere to bare metal. For that matter, you may need to prime it to get best adhesion anyway.

I'd also consider soft solder or silver (acutally tin) solder.
I expect Birchwood Casey's Aluminum Black or brass black would darken the solder, then use the regular Gun Black for the steel. I bet the match would be pretty close.

Along those lines, I have a cheap FIE Colt blackpowder revolver that I am rebuilding. It has a lot of stamped "engraving" that I would like to make go away, on both brass and steel. I have not yet come up with an acceptable way to do this, and I won't paint it.

 

[Svet]

I'd also consider soft solder or silver (acutally tin) solder.
I expect Birchwood Casey's Aluminum Black or brass black would darken the solder, then use the regular Gun Black for the steel. I bet the match would be pretty close.

Tin solder was my first choice. Thanks for the tip on that Birchwood stuff. I'll try to find it here but chances are that they don't have dealers where I live.
Seems that no online store ships Gun Kote or DuraCoat internationally. I will have to forget about those cool gun finishes and try some homemade stuff.
Any working formulas for blackening tin?
Thanks!

 

[bs32]

Ya want it to look like new. Then learn to MIG /TIG weld and fill the pits. Then surface finish the metal and polish. You'd also have to have all numbers and lettering restamped. Then finish with a hot blue. A lot of work, equipment and skilled labor is involved and I can tell from your posts that you don't want to go that way- but anything else won't make it look like new. You cannot " hot blue" tin/lead solder or silver solder for that matter. Plastic fillers will not blue. If you don't want to do this then paint / or a coating is your only option. You could find a plater and send it out to have it copper plated then fit is together -surface finish / polish / and restamp - then have it nickle or silver plated.

bs32

 

[Jim K]

Whoa, how about some perspective here? We are talking about spending months with a TIG welder, or shipping the gun to a restorer who won't open a box for less than a couple of thousand bucks?

That gun is an old copy of a break top Webley, probably Spanish or Belgian, worth maybe $100 if new in the box. You can buy guns like that at any big gun show for almost pocket change.

Restoring it to new condition is simply not possible, no matter what anyone says or what magic compound they think will work. If you did somehow make it look good, it would still be so weak it would probably let go if fired. If you want to fill the worst of the holes with body putty, plug the chambers, and then spray paint the thing as a wall hanger, OK, but spending hundreds of dollars or months of your time on it just doesn't make sense.

Leave it like it is. It is worth now as much as it ever will be. Tell people how your great-great-grandfather fought the Indians or the Zulus or somebody with it.

Jim

 

[Svet]

bs32, hot bluing is not an option, of course.
I do not intend to blue steel via the hot method too.
tried to order a can of Gun Kote but no store ships it outside the USA. Same thing with DuraCoat.
So, I am searching for a way to blacken tin with chemicals and make it the same color with steel.
Cold bluing that is.

 

[thales]

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I would not even consider trying to fill the pits. If you do try, you will expend a great deal of effort and end up with something awful.

I would brown the gun, put a light coat of oil on it and hang it on the wall. Brownell's and Dixie Gun Works sell browning solutions. If they can't be shipped, the formula should not be difficult to find with a little research.


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[ACORN]

Automotive shops sell a 2 part glazing putty like US Chemicals Half Time, or Icing, that are like the old Nitro-Stan, in that they are a creamier texture than regular body filler. The old Nitro-Stan was almost a spreadable lacquer primer, that air dried and if applied too heavily, it would take forever to dry, and when the solvents evaporated out it woul crack. The 2 part products are a catalyzed polyester filler that do not require evaporation to dry, so you can apply thicker coats without cracking. I think for your project the 2 part filler would be the ticket. I'd abrasive blast it to get a rough surface for the filler to "grip", putty then stick sand to get a straight surface, prime and then paint with a satin black spray paint. Maybe a spray epoxy. Similar products should be available in your neck of the woods. Just make sure you get a 2 part finishing putty, not ordinary filler. It won't be shootable, but would look a heck of a lot better.
Good Luck!

 

[ACORN]

Sorry double clutched

 

[Svet]

Thanks, guys!
I will try with tin solder. Let's see what will happen.

 

[Cosmoline]

There seems to be some serious confusion about the nature of a "patina" on old firearms. You do not get one by putting a revolver in a basement or out in the weather for a few months It only develops over time as the existing blue slowly fades and is replaced by a layer of INACTIVE OXIDIZED STEEL. The key word being INACTIVE. It's rust of a sort that functions as a fairly weak but cool looking barrier to more rust. I've owned many old rifles with patina, and you can clearly tell the difference between it and active rust.

If you just leave a steel firearm outside or in a wet basement as was suggested, you will quickly have ACTIVE RUST which will devour the steel like termites eating wood. That's what causes the pitting. Leaving ACTIVE RUST on a firearm is NEVER appropriate, and if the firearm is covered in the stuff you have no choice but to clean it off. Usually this can be done without resorting to stripping. Oil and a lot of elbow grease can work for spots. But if it's too far gone, as this one appears to have been, there's no choice and you have to strip it to save what's left.

As far as filling in the pits, there's not much you can do. I'd suggest leaving it in the white or getting a quality reblue. The collector value of the piece, if it ever had any, was gone as soon as the former owner(s) decided to let the rust eat huge holes in it. The good news is pits aren't always fatal. If they're still limited to the surface and don't thin out any vital parts, the firearm is still workable. I had a Security Six that was mostly pits that shot fine.

Forget the solder, that's just nutty. It wont' add to the strength one bit and it will look like a bad case of acne. Just get a quality reblue on the remaining steel if you want to make it look nicer.

 

[Jacobus Rex]

I'm only guessing here and have NEVER tried this. However, you could try it on some other rusting piece of metal first.

1. Fill the pits with solder. You would have to do a good job of making it flush with the steel.
2. Since duracoat or gunkote is hard to get in your country, try finding a commercial teflon or polymer type industrial paint and apply it over the solder and metal. Most of the gunkote type products are really just re-labeled industrial paints of some kind. You might try some research to find out the industrial name of one of these products

I have no idea if it would work or look good. However, it would be an easy thing to test on an old piece of rusty steel.

 

[0007]

IF you have access to the equipment and IF you have a lot of time, you can bead blast it to a nominally even surface and then polish it on an electric polishing wheel. The bead blasting will take some time and careful working, and the polishing wheel will make a man out of you, heh, heh.
I did the aluminum castings on an older BMW R-50 this way back when I was a lot younger.
But if it is done with care, the end product is pretty nice. Then you can "brown" it or cold blue it.

 

[Cosmoline]

I like thale's idea of browning it.

 

[thales]

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To my way of thinking, a painted finish is a good utility finish for guns that are going to be abused; like a duck gun that is going to roll around the bilge of a boat in a salt marsh or a revolver that is going to live under the seat of a pickup truck that goes over a lot of washboard road. With enough work you can fill in the pits, smooth it out, and cover it with paint. But let's try to keep in mind that this is a rusted out revolver, not a '56 Buick. Paint will never look anything other than fake on an old gun. If you go down that road, what you will end up with after all that work will look about as good as a '56 Buick with a thick coat of Zolotone (multicolor texture paint). It hides the dings and the Bondo, but it looks like, well, Zolotone.


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