Revolver cylinder gap gas severs thumb, now shooter sues S&W

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Once upon a time I was out at a buddy's farm plinking out in the fields and saw a groundhog pop up out of a drain tile a good distance away. I had my .357 Colt in my hand, and without thinking, I took my left hand and gripped my right forearm, and braced the barrel across my left forearm and took the shot.
I still have a green work shirt with a blackened area on the left bicep.
Stoopid. My fault entirely.
Oh, yeah, I dropped the groundhog.
 
I am willing to bet that this fellow hardly shot revolvers before. never knew that "exploding" gas from the cylinder gap will cut and coming from a big revolver? Couple that with inexperience and you get injuries.
 
When you buy any dangerous object such as a car, a motorcycle, a power tool, a boat, a gun etc. You have an obligation to yourself and others to read the manual that comes with it, and understand the safety warnings and the operation of the device.
If you are not capable of taking on the responsibilty of reading the manual, you probably shouldn't own the device. The gun is a lump of metal it has no brain, that means you must understand how to use it safely. Unfortunately many folks have gone out and bought a revolver like the .460 which is an expert's tool not for the novice or the unitiated to buy as a first gun, and it is their first gun, and they dont have a clue how to safely operate it.

Lately we have had 8 motorcycle deaths in our area, all were young men who had bought a racing bike with no understanding of how to ride it and then gone out and ridden at night at over 100 miles per hour.
That is what this guy did, he is responsible for his injury not S&W, or anyone else.

If he had taken 10 minutes to skim the manual he would have seen the warning in idiot pictures. But he did not. The result is that he lost his thumb, he got off easy. Revolvers have alwasys worked this way. Even my 10 and 12 year old children know about the barrel cylinder gap on the .22's they shoot.

Perhaps S&W should have a picture of a severed thumb engraved on the side plate to avoid future injuries by idiots? No I dont think so the manual has an adequate warning. When ever you invent an idiot proof device, along comes a better idiot.
 
The jury is going to give the guy a boatload of money is my bet. It's the un-official lottery. Someday, you may be the 'lucky' plaintiff in a lawsuit. It is the age of personal irresponsibility. Right, wrong, and justice have nothing to do with anything. This is America in the 21st century. Get used to it.
 
This is a good reason for everyone with some common sense to sit on a jury!

Hopefully, a few smart responsible people will see to it that this guy gets nothing from his stupidity.
 
In the current universal edition of the 'Safety and Instruction Manual', REV_091207', it does caution, in bold red, on pg 17 & 19 not to put anything you value near the b/c gap. Of course on the bottom of pg 18 is my favorite caution - in bold red:

WARNING: THE REVOLVER WILL FIRE IF THE TRIGGER IS PULLED!

Gotta wonder...

Stainz
 
I agree that the warning should be clearly & prominently displayed in the manual, and it seems like it was, but where is the line, regarding power levels and liability? A .44 magnum will mess you up if you do the same thing, so will a .357. Even a .22 expels the gases from the gap. I have heard of no lawsuits stemming from lower powered guns and cylinder gap injuries.

Compare it to a car. On the one hand, we have a 1956 VW Beetle which has 36 HP (I believe) and a new 'Vette, which is a real rocket. If someone loses control of the Beetle, will VW be free from liability while Chevy is held liable when someone loses control of the 'Vette?

Is a finish nailer injury is the user's fault while a framing nailer injury becomes the manufacturer's fault?

In short, where would the liability-shift-from-user-to-manufacturer line be? I wish I was on that jury. He wouldn't get a penny.

To S&W: Please don't settle this out of court. I'm begging here.
 
Lately we have had 8 motorcycle deaths in our area, all were young men who had bought a racing bike with no understanding of how to ride it
I was thinking the exact same thing yesterday when reading this thread.

I live in a college town, and there isn't a summer goes by without some young stud with daddies credit card killing himself on a crotch-rocket first bike.

Shorts & sandals with no helmet are de rigueur riding apparel, and darting through traffic like a spastic rabbit in heat is the prescribed riding style!

Some 18 year old splattered himself like a bug riding a two day old Suzuki Hayabusa last summer.
His first motorcycle, and it has a power to weight ratio of 2 1/2 pounds per horsepower, will run 150 in the quarter mile, and top out at 186 MPH! :eek:

I see this as no different then the .460 S&W revolver.

You got to learn to walk before you run!
If you don't, it's not someone else's fault when you fall down.

rcmodel
 
If I were S&W I'd be feeling a little breeze across the nether regions due in part to the observation that all the warnings generally apply to the 617 and 460XVR equally - except for that barrel/cylinder gap thing.

The gap flash warning provided with the XVR is the exact same warning provided with the 617 but the results of non-compliance are not similar. This is not a comfortable observation in a climate where we have sites such as http://www.stellaawards.com/

What's right and / or proper may have very little to do with an outcome here.

I wonder who else is watching? Doesn't Taurus have a raging something or other in 500S&W? Then there's a fair load of factory and custom single actions chambered for various high pressure rounds. I wonder about fallout for others should S&W take it in the shorts with this thing.

I also wonder if the suit goes to jury will it automatically be where filed (Texarcana)? That might be a little ray of hope. At least it isn't San Francisco or Boston. 'Course it's not central Montana or Alaska either, which I might prefer.

More conjecture / theater of the far-fetched: Would S&W be at greater risk than, say Taurus, with the same round due to S&W buying out Thompson-Center in '06? S&W already had a hunting handgun suitable for 460 pressure levels with no gap flash problem which other wheelgun manufacturers didn't have as part of an existing product line. Can't see this being brought up - a discussion of follow-up shots would make a jury's eyes glaze over...
 
The gap flash warning provided with the XVR is the exact same warning provided with the 617 but the results of non-compliance are not similar.

This is exactly how they're going to get nailed. I'm a little bit shocked that they didn't see this coming.
 
He should sue the government too...S&W CANNOT put a forearm or vertical foregrip on that revolver because a stupid government regulation says that it would be a rifle.
 
S&W may be open to attack on the issue of whether the design problem was both forseeable and preventable; obviously they foresaw it -- hence the warning in the manual -- and we have the Nagant as an example of a commonly available revolver that has no cylinder gap while firing.
 
so young

revolvers in the early 1800s had a habit of firing off more than one chamber and that was the reason that the colt revoling rifle was distrusted and the shooter made sure his support arm was not in front of the cylinder.so things have changed have they?
I had a remington 44 fire 3 chambers.very interesting.I hhad learned long before to keep my hands away from the front.frankly if I wanted a rifle I would buy a rifle.45 colt is enough as I dont want a future with damaged bones in my wrist.:uhoh::rolleyes:
 
Maybe S&W can find someone to testify that the man's thumb was already loose when the accident occurred. Or maybe that he read on a gun forum how holding your hand over the cylinder acts like a suppressor*.










*It doesn't. Do you REALLY need to be told that?
 
By Glenn Bartley;
Are you still not getting it? Look at where he says he rested the revolver. THE WINDOW of the deer stand. Makes one wonder, at least it makes me wonder (and I am one) if the window had glass in it, and if the glass was blown out and severed his finger, or if there was a window latch on which he caught his finger and severed it, or if wood splintered and that caused the finger to be severed, or if the recoil made the window slam shut on his finger severing it, etc....

Deer stands have windows that you can shoot through, there is no glass in them. A deer stand is usually built at some elevation off the ground. You climb up into them and wait for a deer. The stands may be open or enclosed. May have windows. But never glass windows as you could not shoot through them.

Lord, it's surprising how many folks here don't know or did not know that the hot gasses and particles of unburnt powder, etc. from the barrel to cylinder gap can burn ya. It's also a bit surprising for folks to ask for pics of correct ways to hold a revolver which means that they don't know. It's not surprising that many folks don't know just a bit surprising that fellas who come to an internet forum on revolvers haven't already taken the time to find out.

This suit is a nuiscence suit. Designed to be settled out of court where the fella gets a few bucks so that S&W doesn't have to spend a lot of money on lawyers. The man has no case.

tipoc
 
Lord, it's surprising how many folks here don't know or did not know that the hot gasses and particles of unburnt powder, etc. from the barrel to cylinder gap can burn ya.

False dichotomy. I'd suspect plenty that knew the b/c flash could hurt may have been mildly surprised to learn that it could also sever a digit.

...just a bit surprising that fellas who come to an internet forum on revolvers haven't already taken the time to find out.
I find that very interesting. While I would tend to agree that an internet forum is not a good place to go to first learn about revolvers I always thought that mine was a minority view. I've read plenty of comments to the effect of "If I need to know that sort of stuff I trust the members of THR more than the print rags".

I would have thought that a noob coming to the revolver forum would be quite normal.

I should hasten to add that the THR revolver forum is a great place to learn such things. My only caveat is that it involves a two-part education with the first part learning to differentiate between the Fuffs and Dfariswheels on the on hand and the random posters here only because the counterstrike servers are down on the other hand. Once that's done, there's a wealth of great information to be had. I suppose the preceeding is its own false dichotomy: there's plenty of area between the old masters and the counterstrikers - in fact, I suppose most of us fall "betwixt and between" the extremes.
 
Maybe the guy thought, if he holds the left cylinder gap, the bullet goes more to the right, and if he holds the right cylinder gap, the bullet goes more to the left!:rolleyes:
 
Hawk, there is no false dichotomy. I did not say I was surprised that some folks didn't know a thumb, or part of one anyways, could be blown off by BC gap. I said I was a bit surprised by folks at a wheelgun forum who did not know they could be burnt by it. When you look at the posts a significant number of posters did not know that the gases from the BC gap can burn you, period, from any revolver. This includes quite a few with a number of prior posts. That was and is the only thing surprising to me from this thread.

There is nothing disrespectful or dismissive to new shooters about this observation.

For two generations shooters have been losing pieces of their digits or burning gaps into their hands from BC gap of the .357 Magnum and the 44 Magnum. For 150 years or more folks have burnt themselves lightly from the same on any number of guns including .22s. (There have also been numerous discussions over the years on burns from ported revolvers and autos). It stands to reason then that the more powerful the round the bigger the burn.

THR, and other forums are a useful place for learning a number of things about guns. But the basics are best learnt elsewhere. Particularly from a basic firearms class. If a shooter is new to guns there is no substitute for that and most particularly not an internet forum.

For generations good basic books on shooting, including the proper grip to assume on a gun, have been published. The NRA distributes a good many. It is a little surprising to me how many folks overlook these low priced and invaluable resources for acquiring basic knowledge. The downside to forums such as THR are the large number of yahoos. It can take longer for a new shooter to pick up useful information due to that. Nothing can be done about that but to patiently explain.

I've read plenty of comments to the effect of "If I need to know that sort of stuff I trust the members of THR more than the print rags".

This can be true depending on the "stuff" a fella wants to know. It's always useful for shooters, new or otherwise to read fellas like Ed McGivern, Charles Askins, Bill Jordan, Chic Gaylord, and others on the basics like grip and sight picture, trigger pull, etc. There is no shortcut, when it comes to basics, to the work of reading and studying and taking a few classes. Maybe that is what I lament that for some serious study has given way to the desire to become an "expert" quickly. For others though the internet can be a starting point for that study.

tipoc
 
so Klinton&Wesson will have the lawyer lock and the Ruger Bill board on their guns now?
 
I said I was a bit surprised by folks at a wheelgun forum who did not know they could be burnt by it. When you look at the posts a significant number of posters did not know that the gases from the BC gap can burn you, period, from any revolver.

Ah, I see. I was guessing there were more that were neither all the way ignorant of the effect or exhibited no surprise whatsoever but I'd have to concede I didn't go back and do a count.

Personally, I don't think I ever gave the issue much thought - I'd been "kissed" by a Super Blackhawk in the next lane over early on and remember thinking how rare and special it was that CSI actually got it right in an episode featuring gap flash burn but if I was being honest with myself I'd admit to a degree of surprise with how much more an XVR brought to the table in that regard.

I still hate unmeritorious lawsuits.
 
if the gases cut or blew his thumb off, there wouldn't likely be blood spraying, it would have sliced it and cauterized the wound. This guy's BS on so many levels. At least that's what seems logical to me. :shrug:
 
^--- If you've a strong stomach, check the pics linked in post #69. There will be no difficulty in picturing blood. Simultaneous cut and cauterize takes the light saber analogy a step too far, IMHO.
 
No matter the warnings, someone will be careless - and get hurt. It's like another one of my long term hobbies - woodworking. Like the motorcycles, you cannot make dangerous devices inherently safe, it defies logic to try to do so.

We all recall the tragic 'Seinfeld' episode where his friend George lost his fiance - toxic shock from licking wedding invitation envelopes... the horror!

Re the b/c gap blast... once upon a time, at an indoor range about to go under, they told me it was okay to shoot my .454 SRH... bad idea. I stood to the right in my shooting booth - so my wife could try to get a picture of my shooting it. The muzzle was out far enough, but the b/c gap flash ignited the sound deadening material. With the gale force wind of their exhaust fan, I had a heck of a time putting the smoldering insulation out.

Don't do this. I'd never do this with a Magnum load, but a .45 ACP/.45 Colt or .38/.44 Special was illuminating enough. At an outdoor range, I draped a clean shop towel over the top of the revolver - leaving the muzzle clear, of course. I also taped a cloth in front of the muzzle on the bench. Shooting my old powders (W231) vs new - Titegroup - left particulate matter - unburnt powder - in the smoked b/c areas on the towel and in front of the muzzle with the old, just grey-ish smoked stains with the Titegroup. I couldn't believe what one shot left on the b/c drape with the older powder. My b/c gaps are .004-.006". I have used Titegroup for over five years now. Again - take my word - don't do this.

Stainz

PS Even my 1895 Nagants - with modified .32-20 brass - spits at the b/c gap. That gap closes just before the fp finds it's way through the breech block to the round's primer, the convex, ie, inverted, forcing cone finding it's way into the concave cylinder chamber exits. Without the proper 7.62x38r brass's long nose 'bridging the closed gap', even they can still spit.
 
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