Revolver or auto

Status
Not open for further replies.
I recommend revolvers to my 1st-timer friends too. 357 Magnum is the way to go. As said above, 38 Sp ammo to practice with all the way up to hot 357 Mag boomers. Stoke to taste. My only hesitation in that recommendation is the price of 38 Sp is still more $$ than 9 mm when it comes to factory practice ammo.

I agree the 870 is a more functional HD choice but if they can only buy one item and they are interested in a handgun then why poo-poo the choice?
 
I offer my apologies Zahc. I see we are on the same page. I'm sorry I misread your point and placed you in the wrong camp.

BTW I guess you can see I like spinning cylinders over shell shuckers. :D
 
Man, I don't know why semi-autos are even entering into this equation. If he's not going to shoot it much, which is what I gather, I think semi-autos are the absolute worst way to go. I won't carry a semi-auto until after 200 break in rounds and then an additional 500. Then you have to deal with ammo compatibility. I don't think that anyone not willing to make at least that much committment to functionality should even consider a semi-auto. If I'm doing this for a sig, glock, hk, and a few others, I'm nearly positive it will pass. But I still do it just in case.

With a revolver, if I can get the cylinder to turn about 100 times and 100 rounds to fire, I'm certain it will work. I may be wrong about that. Please, correct me if I am.
 
I agree with the majority here.

For HD a long gun is better as the main gun. A shotgun is reliable, a good stopper, with the right loads it doesn't overpenatrate, and being a long gun (long sight radius) its accuracy is more forgiving under stress. It is also pretty cheap (well under $300 for a pump gun, and often closer to $200). A .223 carbine or pistol caliber carbine (esp. the revolver caliber lever guns) would be good too. More power than a handgun (the revolver calibers really benefit from the longer barrel), the .223 has less penatration than most handgun rounds, longer more forgiving sight radius, etc.

For a HD handgun, the revolver is usually my choice (for myself as well as what I suggest to others). They are simple, if you are awakened at 3am by some noise it is quicker to action to have something you can just pick up and look at and know it is ready to go- no worries about whether you chambered the round, the safety or anything else. They are also usually far more reliable and take to being left sitting for long periods better (the auto has mag springs that will eventually wear out if left sitting, with the revolver, while it isn't a good idea for other reasons, you can leave it sitting for years and you can still be confident it will "go boom" when you need it).

For a first and/or only handgun I also suggest revolvers (and yes, I lived by my advice here too, my first was a .38spl Taurus 82). They are simple to use (fewer levers, safeties, and other things to worry about) so there is less to go wrong. The DA and SA modes are quite obvious and deliberate so it is easier to really get the workings of both. Then, in .357mag chambering, there isn't really anything as versatile. Cheap .38 plinking/practice rounds are available, decent .38spl defensive ammo is out there, good .38+Ps and powerful .357mag defensive rounds through even more powerful .357mag hunting ammo is available. A .357mag really can be adapted to just about any need. Also, should he someday choose to reload it is easier not to have to chase after the brass.

Also, as said before, for HD barrel length isn't as important since concealment isn't an issue. Go with no less than 3" for good performance out of the ammo (short barrels cause it to lose some velocity and power). A 3" is also quite handy and should he ever decide to carry is quite concealable. Still, if he'll never carry the 4" is also a good way to go and you get a little more power (and if he ever changes his mind it is still concealable). I wouldn't go above 4" for a beginner just because it starts to get a bit heavy. I think the 3" or 4" for an only gun is far more versatile than the alternatives. That said, up to a 6" should work fine for a beginner or only gun as well.
 
I llike semi-autos too but with maximum adrenaline pumping through your veins would you bet your life you remembered to flick the safety off, etc?
Click to expand...

You see, this is why most of my semiauto pistols are Glocks :)

In all seriousness, I prefer semiauto pistols, preferably in 9mm. I shoot them better than revolvers, I practice and train more than enough to know how I will perform in a stressful situation. However, that is my personal preference, and does not apply to others. My first handgun was a .357 Magnum revolver, and I think it's an excellent first handgun for everyone, especially the occasional user, as (IMHO) semiauto pistols do require a bit more practice and effort to become proficient with, especially in an emergency situation. I'd suggest a stainless Ruger GP-100 .357 Magnum with a 4-inch barrel. It's a good, simple to operate, and reliable gun, and should work well for your friend.

I agree that shotguns are better for "hd/shtf" uses, but if someone wants a handgun, I'm not going to argue with them.
 
...revolver. Not likely one will ever fail to eject or stovepipe
END

No but they do missfire, go out of time, get cases stuck under the extractor star and have bullets jump crimp.

SNIP
I llike semi-autos too but with maximum adrenaline pumping through your veins would you bet your life you remembered to flick the safety off, etc?
END

Yes I would because I train with what I carry as you should. The safety being flipped on and off should be a conditions response one that is not thought about. The only cognitive decision should be pressing the trigger.

As for mag springs it depends on the gun. I know fo mags loaded for the 1911 in ww2 that still work today. Revolvers can and do work as they did in the old days. But today they are obsolete. The auto is the best choice for a primary ccw, or home defense gun. The revolver does fine as a deep concealment gun such as an airweight smith. But as a full size service weapon it makes little sense when compared to an auto. We no longer ride horses as a primary mode of transportation. Its time to move on.
Pat
 
...as many others have said, a big 'ol 357 Magnum!
END

Its not a bad round but how can you call the smallest of the mainstream magnums big? Now if your talking a 44 mag then you can call that big. But the 357 mag is a wee magnum.
Pat
 
Revolvers can and do work as they did in the old days. But today they are obsolete.
Click to expand...

If so then why are there so many still being built by various companies today? Could it be that they are only obsolete to die hard semi-auto shooters?
 
If so then why are there so many still being built by various companies today? Could it be that they are only obsolete to die hard semi-auto shooters?
END

Well when you compare the number of autos made for police carry/ ccw carry compared to the number of revolvers made for that same market you would see that autos far outnumber revolvers. Flintlock pistols are still being produced as well as cap and ball revolvers but would you consider these as anything but obsolete.
Pat
 
Pat, you still singing that silly song? I thought you might have learned a new note or two by now. :D :D

The semi-automatic has some advantages in the law enforcement and military area because the logistics of the magazine work better for supplying a large force with ammunition. The gun itself exists only as a way to use the ammo carrier system. In a civilian situation the semi has absolutely no real advantage over a revolver and in many, many ways the revolver is far superior to the semi-automatic. When it comes to accuracy, reliability, power, dependability or any other measure, the revolver wins hands down.

Look at the issue of Manuals of Arm. Basically, the MOA of every revolver made is the same with the biggest exception being the location of the cylinder release and whether you pull it back, push it forward or pull it down. And even there, the designs are such that it is usually intuitive even to someone who has never held a handgun. That is certainly not the case in the world of semi-automatics.

Also, consider innovation. While handguns in general reached a pretty much level state sometime around the beginning of WWII, with no major innovations since then, the one exception is the Dan Wesson Revolver (Karl Lewis as the inventor) barrel system. Other than that single exceptions, there have some improvements in materials, some changes in production techniques, some rearrangement of prior works, but no innovation. Only in wheelguns has there been any real innovation since 1938.

So based on the above, I'd say that far from being obsolete, the revolver is the most dynamic and highest developed segment of the handgun world.
 
The numbers game bear out the fact that they are not obsolete. Enough are made to be included in statistics.
The percussion nor the flintlock is obsolete as they are still in production today. Have you seen a wheellock or matchlock being made today? They are obsolete.
These designs may not meet your approval, but they are far from bein obsolete as they are still produced in numbers today.

Using your thought process of determining usage by the numbers, when you look to the hunters far more revolvers are made to serve this function than any semi-auto. Does that make the semi-auto obsolete for that purpose?
 
Jar buddy. I am going to have to disagree with several of the advantages you listed in the revolver section.

First accuracy. Autos hold the lead here if you look across the board. Have you seen any revolvers at a bullseye match lately? I will concede in the service pistol area that service revolvers hold a small edge if the group is taken as a whole. But that edge no longer exists if you compare the most accurate autos with the most accurate revolvers. Say a Colt Python vs. a Sig 210. It’s a draw. Next you said reliability. Well again if you compare the best autos to the best revolvers its a draw again. I have had revolvers malfunction and autos as well. I will give revolvers credit that it’s easier to clear a type one malfunctions with a revolver. (Fail to fire) With the auto it’s slower by about a second. Tap rack access takes about 1 to 1.5 seconds compared to pulling the trigger. The edge is evened out when you consider the malfunctions revolvers often get take a lot more to clear. Ever get a case stuck under the extractor star. It’s a pain to fix. It cost one New York cop his life when he could not clear his revolver of this malfunction during a reload.

Next you said power. Again I would have to say it’s a draw. In the lightweight pocket class the scandium revolvers have the edge. In the service sized pistol class the Glock 10mm is king. Its not until you get to the Scandium 44 mag that you get more power per pound with the revolver again and that’s a much larger weapon size wise. If you compare typical service calibers they are all about even, 357 mag, 357 sig. 40sw, 45 acp ext.

Dependability see comments on reliability its the same thing.

One area the auto clearly wins is durability. Drop your six-gun on its side from 6 feet and see if it’s still in time. Shoot 10000 rounds of full house 357 mags though that Model 19 and see how it’s doing compared to a Glock 31 with the same number of rounds.

Combat accuracy. Fast hits on target. The auto wins in particular sa autos like the 1911. It’s simply harder to shoot da fast and well. It can be done but it takes more work.

Continuity of fire.

Autos wins. Its holds more ammo, is faster to reload and can be reload with a round in the spout. The revolver is dead during the reload period. Tactical load and speed loads are far easier with the revolver.

I believe citizen’s needs the same thing out of a pistol that cops and military officers do. They need a weapon to protect themselves. Handguns are not offensive weapons. We used them when we can't carry larger more powerful long arms. The military does not fight wars with pistols. Cops do not use pistols in gunfights if they can help it. We do only when caught off guard.

SNIP
So based on the above, I'd say that far from being obsolete, the revolver is the most dynamic and highest developed segment of the handgun world.
END

How can you say that? If anything the auto has been more developed. Although there have been efforts in revolvers as well. Polymer for pistols and scandium for revolvers. At the most I would say it’s a draw.

SNIP
Look at the issue of Manuals of Arm. Basically, the MOA of every revolver made is the same with the biggest exception being the location of the cylinder release and whether you pull it back, push it forward or pull it down.
END

This is a non-issue as you should know how to run the firearm you carry to protect your life. You don't need to know how to run every auto and revolver only the one you carry. And some autos are very simple to use and operate like the GLock.

If the revolver wins hands down why is it always a loser in every form of handgun competition where revolvers and auto's compete together? The only exception is Silhouette Shooting. It’s the primary choice of LEO's and Citizen gun carriers.

Majic are you saying that a flintlock and cap and ball revolver is a viable weapon for ccw or home defense use. If so I am having a good laugh. The mere fact that something is produced does not mean it’s not obsolete. Swords are produced today and they are obsolete battle weapons. Single action cowboy guns are produced but most consider them obsolete as well.

As for hunting I never said revolvers were obsolete in that function. We are talking primary leo gun, ccw gun larger than pocket carry and home defense pistols. At least that’s what I am talking about. If I was vague I apologize. For big game hunting revolvers are better suited. I strap on a 5 shot Ruger Redhawk loaded with a 350 grain lead slug at 1350 fps when I go hunting or fishing. It makes more sense than my 1911 does if I am confronted with an angry bear. I am not a revolver hater. I own several in fact here is a list: Smith and Wesson 442 and 610. Colt Python and Cowboy, Ruger Single Six and Redhawk. I love these guns. But when my life is on the line I will pack one of my auto's. It simply makes more sense.
Pat
 
{genuflecting toward Chino Valley, AZ}

Automatics for Offense, Revolvers for Defense

Police officers are sworn and paid to Go Out And Catch Bad Guys. Home defense is a different situation, with a different objective. Although the primary purpose of a duty weapon is to save the officer’s own life, officers must go into situations where a regular person would never be. Multiple assailants / adversaries, unfamiliar locations, the legal and moral requirement to pursue and capture, and so forth – are not the same for ordinary people defending themselves as they are for an officer in the performance of duty. While a home invasion or street attack might involve multiple attackers, the motivations and actions of the criminals involved are likely to be different than the motivations of somebody who has caused the drawing of an officer’s weapon. Also,

2) Duty weapons are chosen without regard to how well they can be used when the owner is roused from a deep sleep (I’m not trolling for wisecracks here). That should be one of the criteria used in picking a home defense weapon.

3) There are times when it would be sensible for the police to carry rifles. Citizens and city governments are usually not comfortable seeing police officers walking around with rifles, though, so autoloading pistols are carried as a best-available choice.

4) And the big one: autoloaders are Fashionable!

Revolvers for home defense, but my primary HD weapon is a shotgun.
 
Although the primary purpose of a duty weapon is to save the officer’s own life, officers must go into situations where a regular person would never be. Multiple assailants / adversaries, unfamiliar locations
END

When we know there is going to likely be a gun fight we take longguns. We needs pistols for the same reason a citizen with a ccw does. To be there when were caught off guard and don't have a long gun available.

SNIP


Duty weapons are chosen without regard to how well they can be used when the owner is roused from a deep sleep (I’m not trolling for wisecracks here). That should be one of the criteria used in picking a home defense weapon.
END

This has little to do with weapon design. Your training should keep your finger off the trigger of any gun until its time no matter how you woke up. And if you prefer long trigger da type triggers their are plenty of autos out there that can give you that. There are autos with better da pulls than revolvers now. Such as the HK LEM, PARA LDA and SIG K trigger.

SNIP
And the big one: autoloaders are Fashionable!
END

Most of the serious firearms instructors at the best schools who have been there and done it and seen the elephant like Clint Smith seem to prefer autos. Its not a matter of fashion but rather function. A glock is a very ugly but functional weapon. A 4 inch royal blue python is much better looking but its not as functional. Fashion loses to function with serious shooters.
Pat
 
I don't buy the use of the term "obsolete" when comparing wheelguns to autos. Similar to saying the 1911 design is obsolete when it is clearly not (or saying 12 ga is out of style). I know you've posted some specific points which I personally do not have the data to statistically dispute.

However, anecdotally me and everyone I know who shoots has had malfunctions with autos and NONE of the ugly revo malfunctions that are possible. Too many of these auto malfunctions were NOT cleared by a fast sweep-tap-rack drill (and FYI even that does NOT compare to just pulling the trigger again while the sights never left the target). I'm not saying they are common. I am saying I trust my 686+ just a little more than any auto I've ever seen.

One of the two designs MIGHT be considered superior for specific applications (e.g. auto's are easier to reload and hold more rounds) but "obsolete" is too extreme of a word. A hot 357 magnum round will cure what ails you. That's just about all that matters, along with getting six-for-six (or seven with my Plus model). Nothing obsolete about that.
 
Penforhire

As a firearms instructor I have seen autos fail and revolvers as well. The most typical revolver failure is a misfire and its easy to fix. Just pull the trigger again. The most common auto malfunctions I have seen are type one malfunctions that are clear with a simple tap rack access. Double feed or feed way malfunctions are very rare in my experience. Now I am used to dealing with quality guns. I have personally had a load jump crimp in a pistol match tying up my python. I have also seen people get cases stuck under the extrator star. This is a reloading error. But then again so is limp wristing an auto. You can trust your 686. I trust my Kimber 1911. You can say you have heard and seen 1911 and other autos fail. I know the State troopers had tons of problems with their 686's prior to going to Smith 40 autos then to GLocks. All guns fail some more than others. Its less of a design issue of revolvers vs auto and more of a quality control issue from manufacture to manufacture.
Pat
 
My home defense gun is my beretta 92fs which also serves as my daily ccw gun as well,I feel with an auto loader it don't get any more reliable than the beretta 92fs. It will eat anything marked 9mm or mine does anyways come to think of it I've nver seen a bereta 92 jam. Now Iam sure it happens ofocurse but if you get a new or used beretta 92fs and fire it extensively as you should with any gun you plan to use for defenseive purposes you will have one great handgun.

I'am sure there are pleny here who will agree with my thoughts on this great gun . At any rate I also agree with other here who say get a shotgun I plan to pick up a remington 870 home defense model with the ext. mag tube soon. Then my beretta will serve as its back up.
 
355sigfan

To address some of your concerns:

Accuracy: How about a Ron Power custom S&W versus a SIG P210. The 210 is a custom job. They're built by hand, one at a time. They're no more factory than a Wilson Combat. For every penny you invest in an accurized auto, you can invest as much in an accurized revolver and have it shoot tighter groups. It may be an exercise in imperceptible extremes, but the mechanical advantage goes to the revolver.

Durability: Dropping a modern, mechanically sound revolver from 6 feet on its side is not going to damage it. I've done this multiple times from waist level with my carry L-frame. It's also not going to knock it out of time. For a revolver to go out of time, the contact areas on the extractor or the hand itself has to be worn. This isn't physically possible by dropping it. The center pin is entirely too short and too wide to be bent by dropping it from any distance short of those reached by helicopter. It's simply an issue of leverage.

As far as excessive round count goes, well, the Model 19 S&W isn't coparable to a Glock. An L-frame or GP-100 is and will quite easily accomplish the feats you suggest with a similar level of maintenance as the autos you would pit it against. While I have no doubts that a 9mm Glock will run until the end of time, I do have doubts about a .40/.357Sig doing the same.

"Combat Accuracy": Not everybody can take advantage of the mechanical superiority (as you see it) offered by the auto. I'm glad I still have the option to use a revolver other than a J-frame hideout.

Malfunctions: I've only had a case under the extractor once; with a .38 in a .357 Ruger SP-101. Don't limp wrist your autos and they won't malf. Don't hold your revolvers muzzle down and the cases won't jump the extractor (of course, this doesn't happen in all revolver models; I've never had it happen with .357 ammo). If it does happen, well, it's not exactly like it requires hand tools to fix. Tear the case out of there. Unless you're shooting a cast iron-framed H&R .22, the extractor can take a little bit of a beating. If your weapon is mechanically sound, you can do this, reload and be back in the fight.

Revolvers aren't as fragile as you make them out to be. I'm sure some of the LEOs you've met had problems with their 686s. I'm sure some you've met some who were snapping the cylinders shut like Humphrey Bogart. I'm sure some you've met who weren't doing routine maintenance on their revolvers, either. It happens to everybody. These are machines. You don't run your vehicle without oil (regardless if its a Hummer or a Porche). You shouldn't run your weapons without maintenance, either.

I'm also not sure where you get a Glock 20 is appreciably smaller than a 4" N-frame. Having owned both a Glock 21 and a 629 MG, I opine that on the belt it's moot. Personally, I'd take a .44 magnum over a 10mm any day of the week.

Autos are easier to reload while injured. Autos are generally faster to reload, though a dedicated shooter can reduce the temporal differences well into the 'negligable' category. Autos can carry more ammo kept at the ready than a revolver given similar space constraints. The list of advantages for the autopistol goes on and on. Same for the revolver. They have their places. You argue that the revolver no longer has a place as a primary sidearm. Other people who are equally intelligent and/or experienced disagree. Quote Clint Smith, Massad Ayoob or anyone else you like. I'd like a million bullets in my weapon. I'd like a force field. So on and so forth. There is a point where a resonable person has to draw the line. We're all reasonable people (even us revolver shooters) and we've simply picked a different spot.

You know, judging by your previous posts on GT/SF/THR/etc, for someone that doesn't hate revolvers, you certainly pursue every negative avenue available with a fiery passion.

edited for two spelling errors
 
Last edited:
Your buddy had a serious question mark? '?' is not a word. It's a puctuation mark.
"...home defense only, size is not important, and firepower is supreme..." Nope. Size is everything. If a handgun doesn't fit your hand you will not be able to shoot it properly. Firepower is totally irrelevant.
A handgun in the hands of an FNG is more dangerous to the neighbours than any bad guy. In the heat of the moment, bullets tend to be sent in every direction by untrained people. Defending the hearth with a handgun is not the best idea anyway. It takes a seasoned, trained shooter to do so. Your buddy should go get some training and try as many handguns on for size as he can. CZ's are nice but they don' t fit everyone. Too big for me. Shooting every handgun you get has nothing to do with your buddy's shooting. Nor does living alone. Especially if he's in an apartment building. Not many home invasions in apartment buildings.
 
pwrtool45

The 210 was a military sidearm issued in mass to the troops. Its not a custom pistol. Besides lets compare a Les Baer to a Ron Power. And autos are mechanically more accurate. Hence the reason they rule in events like bullseye.

Durability If you shoot an L Frame enough it will go out of time. It also needs to be tightened or checked often. Some 686's I have seen would shoot their screws loose after a day of training. Autos have proved to be more durable over all and have proved to have longer service lifes. The problems the troopers had with the 686 was the cylinders were locking after a few rounds of magnums were fired. Smith had to fix them all.

The Glock 20 is about half as light as the steel framed 629 with a 4 inch tube. And its far easier to fire with full house loads. The 329 weighs about the same as the Glock but its a pain literally to shoot. Both revolvers are a lot thicker due to their cylinders. A Glock 20 is tough to conceal the 629 is about impossible outside of a winter coat.

Reloading speed even when you get fast with a revolver is still going to be longer than a new shooter with an auto. Yes there are champion revolver shooters that can reload faster than me with an auto. But there are champion auto shooters that do so even faster.

I don't hate revolvers as I said. I just like them for tasks other than as a primary self defense weapon. You disagree. Thats fine.
Pat:)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
  • Poll
Revolver or Semi-auto?
2
Replies
49
Views
2K
deputy tom
deputy tom
5
  • Locked
Revolver or Semi-auto?
Replies
18
Views
1K
happy old sailor
H
Charlie Martinez
  • Locked
Revolver or Modern Hi-cap Pistol?
2 3 4
Replies
98
Views
5K
BLACKHAWKNJ
B
5
  • Locked
Suggestions for CCW holder?
Replies
4
Views
796
Josey
J
M
  • Locked
Economical, non-junk,home-defense pistol suggestions...
2 3 4
Replies
84
Views
5K
FatPants
F
Back
Top