Revolver versus Autoloader...

Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Lunie

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Messages
530
...A topic that pops up so often elsewhere... And that I think could maybe be best answered in the Blackpowder Realm. :neener:

Now, of course revolvers are pretty ubiquitous around here, and should need little introduction. But Autoloaders... that may take some imagination.

Well, if we are going to decide which is best,. we'll need to figure out exactly what these Automatics are. The simplest would have to be a friend or relative who reloads for you each time you fire a shot. But we are in the modern age, and such simple devices can surely be improved. I suppose by a stretch we could call revolvers and single-shot arms whose hammers return to half or full cock upon firing to be, shall we say, semi-automatic. :evil: :barf:



What do you folks think? How close can we get to an "Automatic" muzzle-loader? And how would it stack up against the various revolver models?

(I left out BP cartridges, especially those that could be used in autoloaders. That woulda been too easy.)
 
Ah; so you're trying to trick us into dicussing how to convert a firearm to full automatic, huh? Didn't I see you at a gun show in Moses Lake, Washington a few years back? Yeah, I'm sure that was you.

Anyhoo; take a cap and ball revolver, machine down the cylinder so it's just a small hub with six divets in it. Those divets act as cogs to run a chain of steel chambers having percussion nipples on them. There you have a belt-fed C&B gun. You take it from there, BATF dude. Make the chain long enough and I'm sure you can figure out how to get powder and ball back into them mechanically along the loop.

Or do the same with multiple long barrells-- all muzzleloading barrels. Your "reloads" then consist of pre-loaded, extra barrels which your friend, relative, or hired gun handler carry for you.

In short; substitute "metal cartridge" with "chamber" or "cylinder" or "barrel" and use your imagination.

Technically, a modern metal cartridge is loaded from the "muzzle" though we call it a "mouth". So make it out of steel, add some length as required, and put rifling in it. Whatever, see. There's nothing new under the sun when it comes to the gun. Yet.
 
Omnivore said:
Ah; so you're trying to trick us into dicussing how to convert a firearm to full automatic, huh? Didn't I see you at a gun show in Moses Lake, Washington a few years back? Yeah, I'm sure that was you.
Click to expand...

:scrutiny: WHAT?!?!?!? :eek: :what:

I'm trying to paint the old question of (semi)automatic versus revolver in an unusual, and hopefully entertaining and informative light.

:cool:
 
Lunie.

What was that fine white powder you put on your cornflakes this morning??? It sure didn't look like sugar! :) Better give that stuff back to the "Street Vendor" you bought it from!! ;)

Wade
 
Awww shucks folks, I thought we could have some fun. If that means at my expense, then I reckon that'll work too. ;)

But don't be accusing me of putting white powder on my cereal. Every real man knows that you use fine blackpowder on cornflakes. But I want to know what that yellow stuff is in your Cheerios!

And I wouldn't want any abomination with the name "Remington", unless it was a rifle or shotgun. They went out of the revolver business about a century ago, and for good reason!
 
Levi, I have (inadvertently) tasted many foul things. As an example, I know just how terrible used motor oil tastes. If you've changed the oil in your vehicle on a gusty day, chances are you might have had a similar shower, and if you had your mouth open, you probably know what it tastes like, too. But no, not blackpowder, at least not directly.

As it happens, potassium nitrate is the seasoning used in some of my favorite meats, like corned beef, salami, etc. That's as close as I hope to come to actually tasting BP though.
 
I've tasted Black Powder once, probably why I'm a little off in the head some times. LOL

Well in my opinion a Pepper Box pistol would be the best basis for such a weapon, similar to what Omnivore said with preloaded chain of powder & ball with a fulminate primer almost like a caseless round, then have the weapon set up on a wind up system similar to the wheel lock but instead it functions the mechinism similar to a gatling gun.
 
I tasted black powder once. Just to know. Also tasted a match head when I was a kid.
Don't know why.
I'd rather smell either one, burnt, than to taste them.

The only thing I know about running a semiauto on BP, is from the video of the 1911 running on BP.
 
OK, I'll bite on this one. I've been watching a cool thread on this over on TFL. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460489

I like the concept of a semi/full auto BP gun, but not sure how practical it would be. Anyway, the harmonica rifles are SWEEEEET! :evil: If there were to be a an auto or lever BP gun, this concept would be the easiest to manufacture, and the most similar to a modern magazine-fed firearm....
 
I've tasted blackpowder before, most people who have loaded muzzle loaders with the paper cartridges you tear with your teeth have... Tastes kind of sulfury. Sometimes the cartridges just wind up in your mouth if you're trying to load really fast.

Part of the problem with creating an autoloader or even a semi-auto (of your definition) with black powder is the fowling issue. The fouling associated with black powder gums up any complex machinery. It is part of the reason that the development of automatic firearms coincides with the development of smokeless powder. The only real sort of semi automatic muzzleloader I can recall historically is the .436 Dean and Adams Double Action Percussion Revolver patented in 1851 by Robert Adams. There were other double action revolvers that used black powder in cartridges. The early .455 Webley revolvers, for example, used black powder cartridges.

The reality is though that the single action revolvers are going to be more accurate, and a skilled shooter can fire just about as quickly. There are some videos online showing some cowboy action shooters shooting more quickly with single action army revolvers than 1911s. Though that is not to say that the double action feature would be useless. The Beaumont-Adams version of the .436 Dean and Adams with single action and double action developed in 1855 is arguably one of the greatest firearms of the mid-19th century. It is said that this gun forced Samuel Colt out of London, as he simply could not compete with the new revolver.

Cheers!

p.s. A Beaumont-Adams percussion revolver can be seen here
 
Last edited:
There is also the double action Webley Bentley Percussion Revolver.
And one mustn't forget double action auto-rotating pepper box pistols!
 
Actually, I *think* the Maxim gun originally fired black powder cartridges. The early .303, to name one.

Alright, so we have some interesting stuff. Keep it coming!




Anyone want to tackle the Revolver Vs. Autoloader question yet? Lay it out in the Blackpowder world. Pros, cons, where do we stand with these contraptions.
 
I think to be accurate, the Webley Fosbery would be called an auto rotating, or auto indexing revolver. An auto loader would be a Colt Gov't model. I would drop the revolver in a flash and reach for the Gov't...
 
Drop a BP cartridge revolver for a 1911 loaded with black powder .45 ACP cartridges???
 
I believe the Cowboy competitiors use BP in the 45 ACP for the Wild Bunch category. Not historically accurate but fun!

The Gatling was originally a BP firearm, and the original model used percussion cartridges.
 
If you really want a C&B semi auto that W-F auto indexing revolver looks like it would be the best pattern. Just substitute replacable percussion cap cylinders for the fixed auto ejecting cylinder.
 
It might be worth noting that there were no successful semi-auto firearms invented until after smokeless powder was invented.

There was a real good reason for that.

rc
 
rcmodel said:
It might be worth noting that there were no successful semi-auto firearms invented until after smokeless powder was invented.

There was a real good reason for that.

rc
Click to expand...
Cartridges? Pretty much.

Smokeless? Not so much... It may have been developed around the same time, but it wasn't necessary for the development of auto-loaders.
 
Unless you count the Gatling or Gardner hand cranked guns, it was.

The first successful recoil operated automatic firearm of any significance was the Maxim machinegun.

It started out in a black powder caliber, but did not actually reach it's potential until the invention of smokeless power. By 1885 they were being chambered in 8mm Lebel and .303 British, both using smokeless powder or cordite.

You can follow the same progression of semi-auto handguns & long guns too.
Borchardt & Browning didn't get anywhere until smokeless powder finally enabled them to design reliable guns in the late 1800's.

The problem with black powder in an automatic is two-fold.
First, the explosion is of very short duration compared to smokeless powders control burn, and it is difficult to harness the power.

Second, black powder fouling gums up the works of an automatic faster then you can clean it out.

rc
 
I'm only making the point that without nitrocellulose powders, we would still have autoloaders today. Maxim's recoil operated action was functional. I wouldn't argue that smokeless is better (it is, especially in this case). IMO, it was not necessary.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

O
  • Locked
The best grips on BP (and other) revolvers
2 3
Replies
58
Views
2K
drobs
drobs
E
  • Locked
Why do people think a pump / lever / revolver is better than an Autoloader?
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Replies
185
Views
6K
Igloodude
I
dagger dog
  • Locked
Buffalo Classic-H&R Handi
Replies
7
Views
1K
dagger dog
dagger dog
R
  • Locked
The Snubnose Revolver for Contemporary Carry
2
Replies
40
Views
6K
ev239
E
J
  • Locked
Some say revolvers are obsolete, I say carry both revolver and Auto, for a reason.
Replies
11
Views
860
innerpiece9
I
Back
Top