Revolvers for Competition

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Crawdad1

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The thread on the '58 Remington had me searching through various forums to see how other people in other countries rate the various revolvers. Its more important to those guys overseas as there is less restrictions on black powder revolvers.


Here is some interesting stuff from across the pond concerning Remington and Rogers & Spencer competition revolvers.

It is time to take a step further and analyze the most employed models and we will do it in the order that the author of this work considers should be in function of their quality or sporting interest, and that will not necessarily coincide with the opinion of other shooters with experience. In this it is possible that appear models that no longer occur, but still exist in the market of occasion and therefore are weapons to take into account in the sport.

Remington HEGE "Army Match Maximun". We considered it to be one of the best as far as sports shooting is concerned, although they had some defect in materials and mechanical performance due to over adjustment and low tolerances. It is not the most faithful reply, but one of the most used in international competitions. Produced by Feinwerkbau. We do not know if it is still in production, but we think it is out of print. They can even be obtained in the market of occasion. Its price when it was for sale oscillated around the 1000 euros (see +). Oversized grip. High performance.

Roger & Spencer "History N2" by FEINWERKBAU. Massive and blunt, perhaps the best Rogers ever made. In spite of the sporting disadvantages of this model of revolver, the Feinwerkbau clearly imposes itself, even to the best Remington. It is one of the classics in international competitions. The accuracy and fidelity are high, as its price, which oscillates around the 1400 euros. It has always been in the hands of the best shooters and top international positions. High performance.

Remington HEGE 1858 Lothar Walther Special. It is the current bet of Hege by a model of price much more content, around the 600 euros. The main difference lies in the materials and adjustments, with all that this means in the final quality. The trigger mechanism and aiming elements are unbeatable and perfectly adapted to the precision shot. Oversized grip. High performance and price content.

Remington New Model Army "special shooters" PIETTA. Currently still in production with the reference of Pietta RDT 44. In the 90s was not denominated in the same way, simply the generic name of the replica, and its price was more contained. The current name of "special shooters" was to give it some added value by improving the settings of the trigger system and drift adjustable sight. It is the only model with progressive striation similar to the original model. In contrast, the parts that make up the trigger mechanism are not exact to the original model, although their operation is correct. Acceptable revolver, but with more pretensions than benefits. Price around 750 euros.

Remington "pattern" PEDERSOLI. It is a fairly acceptable replica to start in the sports shooting, but whose price is not related to the final quality of materials and adjustments. The royal pier is excessively weak for a construction in which the economy has prevailed over fidelity, both in form and performance. If we want to use it in high competition, there are many improvements that will need, similar to the lower priced models. Handle oversized and not allowed in the European 2011 held in Hamina-Finland (forced to lower them in order to compete). Revolver with more pretension than performance. Price around 750 euros.

From here,

http://www.avancarga.com/8_articulos/25/1_revolver/temas/18_replica/18_replica.htm




 
Here is the discussion that got me thinking, I'm not sure what country this guy is from.

"I am based in northern Europe and just received my first black powder revolver. As its quite difficult and expensive to get a gun license here I chose to buy the "best" one I can afford (no sense in paying $165 for various permits to buy and import a $250 gun). So, after researching the subject I bought the HEGE-Uberti Remington 1858 New Army Lothar Walther Match Special. The Lothar Walther -part means that it has a L. Walther made match barrel. I also chose the factory trigger job and special hardening on certain parts in the action and 2 extra cylinders fitted to the revolver. I dealt directly with HEGE. It took them 3 weeks to get an export license while the gun etc. spent 3.5 weeks at their gun smith. Their courier brought it to my door 4 weeks to the day from my order.

So, I just received it late on friday and my first chance to try it out is a week away so I have basically been cleaning the factory oils off and applying my own and getting used to the feel of it.

Fit and finish is very nice. No complaints at all. Cylinder stop is much more precise than my Rugers. When it engages there is absolutely zero movement in any direction. Trigger is very crisp, haven't measured it but feels pretty much like what I ordered (1.2kgs). Grip is smallish but I guess that is something I get used to.

My only complaint is that they are not very quick to answer any emails. At start I didn't get any response from them so I had to call Germany. They did indeed have my order on their table but I guess they were too busy to answer. And it seems to take more than one try before they react - even after they have received your money. But, after all I am happy with the result."


Notice that this Remington he purchased also has the Lothar Walther match grade barrel on it which is different from the basic Uberti Hege Remington.
 
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Here is an interesting reply from a poster in Italy,

"This page offers interesting information from a top european World champion in several MLAIC disciplines.

http://www.avancarga.com/8_articulos/25/1_revolver/temas/18_replica/18_replica.htm


he is using now a Pedersoli, but he complains about softer steel on the frame, like evident marks on the frame where the cilinder rests, from continous shooting, softer steel (typical italian.... grin.gif ) in the trigger and mechanism, softer steel on barrels, and oversized grips that had to be filed for competition in the 2011 Finland european championship and weak hammer springs.

he says that it might well be a Uberti revolver with a better Pedersoli barrel, at twice the price, but shows no proof of it beyond finding just the same shooting marks on the frame in another Uberti revolver (see photos in link) from continous shooting. (lets nor forget that these World champions normally shoot their guns a lot, to the point of needing a new revolver every few years)

it seems that the HEGE 1858 revolver is highly appreciated for competition by top shooters thanks to the Lothar Walther barrels and the heat treatment in parts and frame.

I think I might be buying one also, as I need a new Remington.

Portuguese shooter Paulo Jorge, WORLD CHAMPION in Mariette ( MLAIC 25 meters bullseye black powder revolver,) discipline, in 2006, in Burdeax, France, uses a Hege army Match revolver and it seems that many top shooters do it too.

his pet load:

a mild 16 grains of SWISS N2, with a 32 long case full of semoline (these World champions never use wads, which prevents them from getting top accuracy results) and a 454 H & N german ball, with a minimum amount of Wonder lube 1000 grease over the ball (according to him, too much grease is no good for accuracy)."


But I looked further in the post and there is no range report.
 
Thank You Gentlemen, it seems to me that our European brothers take their revolvers very seriously. I enjoy reading about the nuts and bolts of these competitions and competitors and how they feel towards some of these match grade revolvers.
 
The Rogers & Spencer was the last and the best perc. reolvers. They have a .457 chamber to elongate bullets for higher pressures. The R&S has a cylinder boss that retards lock up from fouling. The rammer latch is more positive then Colt or Remington. Ruger Engineers used the R&S to crate the Ruger Old Army.

rogers.png
 
I agree about the Rogers & Spencer, Dog Soldier.

The various producers of these 'match' grade revolvers either replicate the Remington or the Rogers & Spencer but it seems that most concentrate on the Remington.
 
I think it would be harder to make a match grade open top revolver since there are more surfaces that have to be perfectly square and fit together.
 
I have a Pietta Shooters model sold under Navy Arms in 1985. (Found this out after I sent them an email.) It has the progressive rifling recommended for .457 and has the silver trigger guard. It is the most accurate BP revolvers I have and is great fun to shoot. All lock up is tight and trigger is pretty good. Bluing is deep and really out shines any I see today. I found it at a yard sale in a battered Navy Arms box, but gun was spotless. Fella just thought it was a plane old BP gun and wanted $125.00 for it. Best buy I ever made.
 
The Rogers & Spencer was the last and the best perc. reolvers. They have a .457 chamber to elongate bullets for higher pressures. The R&S has a cylinder boss that retards lock up from fouling. The rammer latch is more positive then Colt or Remington. Ruger Engineers used the R&S to crate the Ruger Old Army.

View attachment 234994
is this revolver not made by anyone now?
 
I think Dixie Guns may still have the R&S revolvers? Pedersolia has them for some very high prices. I paid $145 bucks for this one some years ago. It is the Target model. A fellow found it in a house he bought in Salt Lake City. It had been a wall decoration never fired. :thumbup:
 
I agree about the Rogers & Spencer, Dog Soldier.

The various producers of these 'match' grade revolvers either replicate the Remington or the Rogers & Spencer but it seems that most concentrate on the Remington.

Good morning Crawdad. The R & S by DP&S continues to be the choice of the U.S. Team BP Olympics. The R & S design was the last and best of BP revolvers. The Union Army never issued them as the war was ending. Bannerman Company bought them for $1.50 each. Not well known but they were very popular on the Western frontier. They are rarely seen in the "B" Westerns?:thumbup:
 
I'm agreeing with "Saddlebag Preacher".

I have the older Pietta "Shooters Model" which was made in 1986 and known as the "Deluxe Model", NAC#DRR 044. They were introduced and sold by Navy Arms Company, whose name sits on the top flat. Val Forgett, founder of Navy Arms, was a huge supporter of the US Muzzle Loading Team for the International Muzzle Loading Championship matches. He introduced the "Deluxe Model" as a full-frame revolver. When a regular Remington was $125, the "Deluxe Model" was $350.

Prior to the introduction of this model, I believe all the Remington copies made in Italy were made to the same dimensions. It was referred in some circles as the "two-finger" grip-frame back prior to 1986. The Remington "Deluxe Model", was popular with competition shooters. It more closely resembled the dimensions of the original Remington grip-frame AKA "the three-finger" grip.

When Val brought out the Remington-style revolver in 1960, he purposely had the grip frame altered to a smaller size to give collectors a relief, spotting a counterfeit Remington.

After the Remington Deluxe Model came out in good numbers for the competition crowd, Uberti decided to match the Pietta's frame size to theirs, so probably after 1990, most all of the Remington-style revolvers made by the Italian makers sported the larger grip-frame that we all know today.

The reason for the high price on the Pietta "Shooters Model" is the manufacturing & labor costs. Internal parts are smoothed out, cylinder has cutouts around the nipples for a Tedd Cash capper, front-sight is dovetailed for windage adjustment, and the barrel has a gain-twist barrel designed for the .457 RB. Among competition shooters, this model ranks third or fourth in the world behind the two Hege Revolver models, selling between $1,200 & $1,700. The Pietta "Shooters Model is identified by the dovetailed front sight and the silver-plated trigger guard. Dixie sells them now for $950.00.

The only customer interested in buying one are those who compete in the NMLRA national matches & maybe a few International Team members, who are waiting for a used Hege to show up for sale.

AFter 15,000+ rounds, it still holds a good group at 25 yards offhand with 18 grains of Schuetzen 3FG black powder, cream of wheat, a Hornady .457RB topped off with T/C Bore Butter.

index.php
 
Note that the Pietta "Target" model is not the same as the Pietta "Shooters" model. The former does not have the gain twist rifling, etc but does have larger sights.
 
I agree Ephraim. I bought a Pietta 'Target' Model back in the 80's with its adjustable rear sight and I wasn't to impressed with mine. It was an adequate shooter but my 2nd Generation Colt could easily outshoot it.
 
"Bannerman Company bought them[military surplus Rodgers & Spencer revolvers] for $1.50 each. Not well known but they were very popular on the Western frontier."
Dog Soldier, do you have any specific reference to the R&S being used on the Western Frontier? I'm not trying to say I doubt you, I'm just interested in learning about it. It certainly seems logical that a high quality percussion revolver, if it were available for cheap, would be very popular.
 
Lonesome Pigeon, I did error on that post. Bannerman paid .50 cents each for the surplus R&S revolvers.:eek: As collectors of Western Frontier firearms know R. &S Cartridge conversions and perc. models were common to the frontier West.
You can research the Roger & Spencer on the Web. There are many sites dedicated to this revolver.
http://pre1900.blogspot.com/2016/05/rogers-spencer-revolver.html
 
Only about 5,800 made including 800 for the civilian market by September 1865. By the time Bannerman's acquired the unissued Rogers & Spencer revolvers in 1901, the "West" was fairly tamed by civilization & the technology of the cartridge firearm.

They would have been seen as antiques or curios, even in the early 20th century. Bannerman's merchandising would made them appealing primarily to collectors, just as Val Forgett did in his Service Armament Company (predecessor to Navy Arms Company) in the late 1950's, when he bought stands of surplus firearms from countries in Central and South America.

Those of us who grew up in the '50's & '60's remember Val's catalogs which conjured up images in our minds of vaqueros, desperadoes, and lawmen carrying historic firearms like Remington Rolling Block rifles and carbines in 7mm Mauser, and Winchester repeating rifles.

It should be noted that many Rogers and Spencers that show up on Gunbroker are usually in NRA Fine condition, showing 90% or better blueing on the handgun. That would usually indicate being carried very little by its owner.
 
The West was civil and tame by 1900? Tom Horn was hanged in 1903. The Hole in the Wall gangs existed until 1918. In 1906 The Battle of Lightning Creek was fought with Springfield 1903 rifles while engaging 400 Sioux.:D
The History of the West is possibly more complex. What you see as a small number of R&S Revolvers would have armed 3 Territories in the West. To this day the vast country of the inter mountain West remains very sparse. ;)
 
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