Rifle Caliber choices...30WCF or 357 Magnum?

[Kernel]

I can't agree, eastbank. Elk can run north of 800 lbs. IMO that's too much for the .30-30 to qualify as a good DRT cartridge. Sure, it’s been done. But it’s more of a stunt, or at best an act of desperation, than a good choice.

 

[Blue Brick]

From my understanding with a handgun the 357 Magnum has be used successfully on deer, black bear, elk and even grizzly bear, and 158gr "rifle only" handloads will develop over 2000 fps from a 20 to 24 inch barrel.

 

[Blue Brick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-NZaLQlhtk&feature=related\

6mins in.....

 

[Floppy_D]

I adore the 357 for it's versatility; out of a handgun it's a hammer. From a carbine, it's an easy shooter with plenty of juice for deer. *Personally* I wouldn't shoot anything bigger than a deer at anything farther than 80 or so yds, but that's what I'd call good.

My dad used to have tons of guns. I asked him which he missed the most. His answer was "a 357 lever."

I've never hunted the bigger animals you mention, but I'd personally want a bigger round.

 

[Kernel]

^^^^^
Keep that mindset and the .357 Magnum carbine will serve you well as a decent deer harvester. A 180 gr bullet adds to the effectiveness.

 

[AH-1]

the 357 maximum might be another choice if you go with a T/C.it has alot more power than a 357 mag but you can still shoot 38 spec,357 mag and 357 maximim in the same barrel.
just a thought...

pete





http://357maximum.com/

 

[Blue Brick]

Is it possible to just handload a 357 Magnum to 357 Maximum levels?

 

[R.W.Dale]

Is it possible to just handload a 357 Magnum to 357 Maximum levels?

No


Maximum cases are a good 1/2 inch longer with the corresponding increase in case capacity

 

[Blue Brick]

According to “Cartridges of the World” the 357 Maximum is 3/10 inch longer than a 357 Magnum. I only asked because I heard that the old SAAMI pressure limit for the 357 Magnum was 40,000 psi which is the current pressure limit for the 357 Maximum.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

 

[Blue Brick]

How hot can a 30WCF be handloaded or does increasing the velocity change the advantage of the 30WCF as being a heavy slow cartridge?

 

[saturno_v]

How hot can a 30WCF be handloaded or does increasing the velocity change the advantage of the 30WCF as being a heavy slow cartridge?

Grizzly Cartridges sell a 170 gr. Flat nose Load which reaches 2400 fps out of a 20" carbine barrel (2000 ft/lb of ME) within the SAAMI pressure limits

The incoming Buffalo Bore 190 gr, Heavy 30-30 load should reach 2300+ ft/lb out of a 20" barrel (however it should be over SAAMI specs)

I heard of handloaders that reach similar results to the BB folks.

The Hornady Leverevolution 160 gr. offering is loaded a bit hotter (~ 2050 ft/lb of ME) than your regular Remchesteral load (but still within SAAMI specs) but it changes the equation for the 30-30...because of the bullet aerodynamics it become a decent long range cartridge...1025 ft/lb at 300 yards is nothing to spit at...the commercial success of the Hornady 30-30 LE has been phenomenal.

 

[ThomasT]

Fenomenal? Do you know how long I had to look at that to figure out what it was? Phenomenal. HaHaHa that was funny! I'm just pulling your leg.

I have a couple of 30-30s and a 357 lever and they are just simply two different rifles. The standard answer is get both. If the ranges are short the 357 is fine. For big game I think 75-80 yards is far enough. Past that I would want the 30wcf.

 

[AH-1]

SAAMI specs list the maximum pressure for the .357 Maximum at 48,000 c.u.p.

http://357maximum.com/

 

[Blue Brick]

357 Magnum 45,100 CUP?

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/...738Cal(9.2mm)/357 Magnum pages 100 to 102.pdf

 

[R.W.Dale]

You cannot compare CUP for two different cartridges as CUP isn't a constant value

The SAAMI maximum average pressure for the 357 Maximum is 40,000 psi.

The SAAMI maximum average pressure for the 357 Magnum is 35,000 psi.

http://www.ramshot.com/powders/loadpressure.php

Grizzly Cartridges sell a 170 gr. Flat nose Load which reaches 2400 fps out of a 20" carbine barrel (2000 ft/lb of ME) within the SAAMI pressure limits

30-30 Winchester 42,000 PSI

Something doesn't add up?
357 mag has a 15% lower pressure rating and half the case capacity. Yet this load would outperform 30-30 with the same bullet weight by a wide margin.

Now I've been convinced that 2K is possible from a 357 carbine with 158grn bullets. But 2400 with 170grainers I find hard to believe

 

[Blue Brick]

Is 5,000 PSI a lot?? Did the 357 Magnum use to be 40,000 PSI?

 

[saturno_v]

Now I've been convinced that 2K is possible from a 357 carbine with 158grn bullets. But 2400 with 170grainers I find hard to believe

Krochus

I don't get it...you find easier to believe 2000 fps for a 158 gr. 357 Mag but not 2400 fps out of a 170 gr. 30 WCF?

The hottest 357 Mag 158 gr. rifle load (18.5" barrel) according to the Hodgdon Reload data center reaches 1757 fps.

You said it yourself.....half the case capacity compared to the 30 WCF and 15% lower pressure...

If you can get 2k with a 357 Mag 158 gr. God only knows how much overpressure you are.....

 

[saturno_v]

Fenomenal? Do you know how long I had to look at that to figure out what it was? Phenomenal. HaHaHa that was funny! I'm just pulling your leg.

Oops!! Sorry, typing mistake!!!

 

[R.W.Dale]

Edit: Misunderstood context

 

[Blue Brick]

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=102

18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2153 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2298 fps

 

[Blue Brick]

I am thinking I might go with the 357 Magnum, but I still have a long way to go until I fill my piggy bank.

 

[saturno_v]

Krochus

Sorry my mistake.

I meant to say: "you find easier to believe 2000 fps for a 158 gr. 357 Mag but not 2400 fps out of a 170 gr. 30 WCF?"

I corrected the original post

 

[Blue Brick]

On an older episode “Cops” one of the officers on duty stated that a 30-30 could easy penetrate their bulletproof vests. Is that true?

 

[R.W.Dale]

Krochus

Sorry my mistake.

I meant to say: "you find easier to believe 2000 fps for a 158 gr. 357 Mag but not 2400 fps out of a 170 gr. 30 WCF?"

I corrected the original post

OK

I also made the mistake of not catching the context of your post referring to the Grizzly ammo. I mistakenly misunderstood you to mean a 170grn 357 load and not a 170grn 30-30 load.

Which incidentally is pretty spicy amongst 30-30 loadings even handloads and prolly right at SAAMI maximum pressures.


Those guys getting 2K with a 357 carbine are doing so using Hodgon LilGun within published data from hodgon. Yeah it surprised the heck outta me too but it's been confirmed by a few members now over a chrony.

 

[R.W.Dale]

On an older episode “Cops” one of the officers on duty stated that a 30-30 could easy penetrate their bulletproof vests. Is that true?

Yes

But Just about any rifle will and even a few handguns.

Bullet proof vests should actually be called bullet resistant. But this is a topic for another thread