Rifled slugs in bead sighted gun...worthwhile?

[AcceptableUserName]

I'm wondering just how accurate can oone be shooting rifled slugs from a bead sighted barrel? A shotgun isn't the best weapon for a spray and pray approach especially considering liability and all of that jazz in an HD scenario. Obviously slugs add versatility and range but unless sights are present, are they really all that viable? My accuracy with your average Rem and Winchester slugs seem to range right around 6-10" groups with a bead sight at about 60-75 yards or so...that isn't outstanding...I've shot with ghost rings and while I couldn't give you a figure I know it was much better. I'm not planning on adding ghost rings to my guns.

is buckshot in the SHOTgun and a rifle for anything else the only effective outlook?

 

[Al Thompson]

slugs add versatility and range

Don't forget penetration. When the bad guy ducks behind your freezer, a bit more smack may be needed.

FWIW, several very knowledgeable folks here use only slugs in their shotguns.

 

[oneounceload]

The correct answer is.................

it depends.

How well YOU shoot YOUR gun with the load you are using. Using slugs for hunting is one thing, for HD is another. I can't imagine where 60-75 yard shots with a shotgun in a HD scenario is not asking for trouble should you succeed. The use of lethal force in most states seems to hinge on the imminent danger principle. At 60-75 yards, one might be hard pressed to prove that.

Therefore, getting back to your premise - slugs with a bead at HD distances would do fine, (and maybe TOO fine).

 

[AcceptableUserName]

a lot of people seem to recommend the Brenneke over everything else really. As far as HD/SD goes, what type of slug do you recommend? Seems like some people are down on Hollow Point slugs because of the loss of energy expansion will cause...thoughts on that little issue? And what are "foster" slugs exactly? I know sabot and rifled only.

 

[chas08]

Speaking from a HD perspective, I prefer the bead only barrel with either buck or slug. It's basically the same as all the other shotgunning I do, and it's "soda can" accurate at 10 yds and "paper plate" accurate at 50 yds with very little practice. That level of accuracy should be more than adequate for most HD encounters. Nowadays I keep five rounds of # 4 Buck in the gun and five Slugs in the stock sleeve, to feed as needed. YMMV

Brenneke are the most accurate in mine. I discovered this while preparing for a one time out of state shotgun only deer hunt a few years ago. But they are the least readilly accessable for me also. Here of late I've been plinking with Remington Sluggers. They're cheap and locally available. Foster style slugs are the type with the hollow base, and a detached wad, and usually some form of rifling. Solid slugs such as Brenneke have an attached wad and also have rifling. The rifling really only serves to allow the slug to pass safely through various chokes. It doesn't really impart any spin.

 

[Al Thompson]

AUN, what ever is cheapest. I have yet to recover a slug from a deer - big hog, yes, deer, nope. Buddy of mine uses reduced recoil slugs as a 70 caliber ounce of lead is effective at 1200 fps. Don't worry about the hollow point as in a foster type slug I think it's a marketing gimmick.

 

[ccsniper]

My 20 gauge mossberg shoots a foot high with federal slugs. But they are always right in the exact same spot every time I shoot them. Saying that, I do not see a reason as to why someone would need slugs in a sd situation unless it was against bears. If your buckshot doesn't do em in then they gotta be super human.

 

[DPris]

Beads are very hard to work with using slugs as distances increase, and many are regulated nowhere near point of aim relative to point of impact.
Inside 25 yards, not much of a problem. Beyond 50, they become very inefficient.
I used three different beaded guns in uniform, my shotguns now have sights. I would not go back to a bead unless it was the ONLY choice available.
Denis

 

[Arkady]

I'm a fan.

Back when I was shooting a shotgun more (college, under 21, no handgun for SD), I could put one ounce slugs into a silhouette target at 100 yards almost every time--from a bead sighted, cylinder bore, 20 inch Mossberg.

Slugs are not nescessarily THE answer, but they will add versatility.

 

[chas08]

I do not see a reason as to why someone would need slugs in a sd situation unless it was against bears. If your buckshot doesn't do em in then they gotta be super human.

I like their potential for turning "Cover" into "Concealment" ... But as you said: Buckshot at SD ranges ought to be plenty.

 

[tkopp]

Bead sights are all really about head position. Especially if you're dealing with an 18-20" barrel. If your eye moves 1/20 of an inch 24" behind the bead(receiver+barrel length) then at 50y you have have a swing of around 4" just from head position alone. That's 16 MOA. The lack of a rear sight is what's killing you. So, if you want to practice, practice first on a very consistent cheek weld and make sure your eye is always in the same place.

 

[AcceptableUserName]

Honestly, I was fairly unimpressed with the penetration slugs are providing out of my shotguns so far. I don't think I've had a single 2 3/4" slug load penetrate a fire extinguisher yet (that's kind of become my Redneck Range shooting yardstick for punch). Shouldn't they be punching through at least one side? So far, the Remington Sluggers seem like hot little buggers and for whatever reason they offer a little more recoil and a little more power/punch upon impact, appparently, than the Winchester Super X and Federal Vital Shoks I've shot.

Pretty sure a 3" will punch through but I'd like to size up all full power 2 3/4" loads first. Fiocchi Aero? Remington Buckhammer? The Brenneke K.O. seems to be highly thought of but I don't know which version to shoot out of my smoothebores. They offer a "Sabot" and a "Foster Type". I'm guessing the Foster type but I always thought that if it didn't say Rifled it wasn't going to be too accurate out of a smoothe.

 

[Jon_Snow]

AUN, the Foster are rifled. Sabots are a waste of money for anything other than rifled barrels.

In order to be even slightly accurate a slug needs to be stable. There are 3 common designs that achieve this. Rifled barrels impart spin to the slug, giving it gyroscopic stability. Sabot slugs were designed to allow the rifling to grip the sabot rather than the slug itself. If you can't spin a slug, because it's in a smoothbore, you have to make the thing front heavy (center of gravity needs to be infront of the mean aerodynamic center). Foster type slugs do this by having a hollow base. Brenneke type slugs do this by having the wad remained attached, creating a long, nose heavy projectile. Both Foster and Brenneke are types of rifled slugs; they have some thin rifling to allow the to squeeze throught a choke as others have mentioned.

 

[1KPerDay]

I'm guessing the Foster type but I always thought that if it didn't say Rifled it wasn't going to be too accurate out of a smoothe.

"Rifled" slugs have nothing to do with accuracy. As Mr. Snow points out the "rifled" grooves are so the slug will size down if it's shot through a choked barrel. They don't spin... unless you shoot them through a rifled barrel.

As for accuracy, I was able to hit metal torso sized silhouettes with the regular forster-type slugs out of my bead-sighted 590 with good regularity out to 50-60ish yards, and get A zone hits on paper torsos at about 25 yards fairly easily. YMMV.

 

[Dave McCracken]

First, a minor correction. It's actually Forster, not Foster, though no one really cares but me.

Second, we had to shoot slugs in the Correctional system for familiarization when qualifying. Using generic Federal and Winchester rifled slugs, we had little trouble keeping 2-3" groups at 25 yards firing off hand.

A plain bead mounted right on the muzzle usually shoots high. Better a base under the bead to bring POI closer to POA.

My slug guns have peeps, but some KOs(Forster Style) run through Frankenstein's bunty little 21" turkey barrel and skeet choke went under 3" at 50 yards from the bench.

So does the little 20 gauge 870 Express with the VR barrel and skeet tube using Remington generics. Kicks like heck though.

 

[DPris]

Dave,
Occasionally I see people refer to them as Forster, but I've not been able to confirm it as "the" correct spelling, I see far more references to them as Foster slugs.

My experience exactly duplicates yours- low bead shot high slugs, high bead/base put them closer to point of aim.

Otherwise-
In testing I did years ago & comparisons between a high bead & a decent set of sights, I could obtain usable accuracy to about 75 yards with a bead, but the problem was that I couldn't be anywhere near as consistent because of the lack of a clear rear reference point (sight). It also took longer on target acquisition in that it simply took longer to confirm where the bead was in relation to the top of the receiver in lining everything up.

Foster type slugs will not penetrate as well on "hard" targets (including bone in animals) because they're soft. They'll either flatten, spread, or break up.

Properly hardened slugs like the Brennekes resist deformation & offer superior penetration.

Fosters will do the job on humans in a defensive situation.
Brennekes will do better on larger animals with larger & heavier bone structures, and deep fatty tissue like the bigger bears. They also provide more of a "cookie-cutter" effect with flatter slug noses that don't let tissue slip by like the roundnosed Fosters do.
See what a Brenneke or a BuckHammer does to a fire extinguisher (which uses pretty tough steel to begin with, I couldn't get .38 Special +P JHPs to penetrate) for comparisons.

Denis

 

[ccsniper]

I like their potential for turning "Cover" into "Concealment" ...

well, I have been seeing some criminals walking down the street with refrigerators duct taped to themselves!!!! I might need to rethink my stance on slugs for home defense

 

[1KPerDay]

First, a minor correction. It's actually Forster, not Foster, though no one really cares but me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug

Wiki says it was invented by a guy named Karl Foster in 1931, FWIW.

 

[chas08]

I have been seeing some criminals walking down the street with refrigerators duct taped to themselves!!!

Now thats funny right there, I don't care who you are. Were they stealing refrigerators? But, what if? Your family member is at the end of a Hallway with a gun to her head, or a knife to her throat, and that slug you just slipped into the chamber, you know you can shoot the emblem out of a COORS can at 30 feet. Do you shoot the BG in the eye? and hope your love one lives? Or do you surrenderer your weapon and hope he lets you go, out of the goodness of his heart? Or do you just lay into them both with a full load of buckshot? I don't know what I would do either, but being Militarily taught, I will not surrender my weapon. I guess it all depends on how much I love his hostage, Or how much BEER is in the refrigerator.

 

[IlikeSA]

So if I understand it right, you can shoot a non-saboted slug through a rifled barrel without negative consequences (leading)?

 

[chas08]

Correct, and if you clean your barrel properly, leading isn't a big issue.

 

[DPris]

I wouldn't state it as an absolute.
Standard soft Fosters may leave some leading, after several. Depends partially on the smoothness of the rifling.
Harder slugs will MOST likely leave less.
Clean periodically. It should not be a problem.

Brownells carries shotgun bore cleaners that address leading & plastic shot cup residues.

Denis

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

A plain bead mounted right on the muzzle usually shoots high. Better a base under the bead to bring POI closer to POA.

Dave, my mossberg 500a shoots ridiculously high with the bead sight on the barrel of my 18.5 in SD barrel (no vent rib). How would you recommend adding a base? or raising the bead? Thanks.

 

[tkopp]

Is it consistent in its height? Think head position first, base second. Without a rib, you need to find a point of reference on the receiver to ensure that bead is being looked at consistently.

I know Dave's forgotten more about shotguns than I'll ever know, but this is a problem I'm working through right now so I'm familiar with it. I picked up a coach gun on a lark and have been shooting clays and slugs with it, and if there's anything a short barrel will teach it's getting your eye back in that same spot, over and over again. Else who knows where your shot is headed?

 

[Mr. T]

I shoot foster slugs out of my beaded barrel and I can consistently put 4 out of 5 shots into a pie plate at 100 yards. I have shot deer at over 100 yards in past years deer hunting. That is using a 12 gauge shot gun. My father has dropped deer 4 different times in my 30 years of hunting at over 200 yards with a 16 gauge Browning A5. I know what some will say BullSpit, and if I hadn't witnessed it directly twice, I would say the same thing, but it is simply fact. People who say you can't shoot a foster slug further than 50-75 yards simply hasn't in all probability tried it.